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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ridley's Cohort" data-source="post: 299039" data-attributes="member: 545">Fair enough.  That can work.But low Str does not make for much of a trip attack or grapple unless you are squaring off against a wizard or commoner.  I thought you were bragging about these options for monks?Don't assume I was thinking of anything of the kind.  Since you brought up d12 damage as some decisive edge, you have you expect you can be matched up against, say, a human with a starting 16 Str, +3 for level stat increases, +3 for an item or potion or spell.  That is a +6 mod vs. your +1 or +2.  Plus his BAB is +3 higher than yours, for a net +8 in the grapple or trip check.  He will win the opposed check ~80% of the time.Your d12 +2 damage is averaging 9 points.  His d3 + 6 averages 8 points.  Is that an edge you want to brag about?  I haven't even considered half-orcs or raging yet.That is an unremarkable human fighter I could build with 25 pts., without notable minmaxing and NPC wealth -- a run of the mill cohort for an Evil Wizard.I am not necessarily thinking player vs. player.  I am debunking the myth that the monk is some kind of unique example of unarmed excellence.  Monks don't truly "own" that niche.  Other classes are competitive if they spend a feat or two.You will run into a lot of fighterish humanoid henchmen over your career, and subdual will do the job.  Humanoids are actually vastly more likely in circumstances you are lacking for weapons.  Weird creatures usually just chop you up and eat you, not capture you and tie you up.  Nor are they common at social events where swords are impolite.</blockquote>

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