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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 309826" data-attributes="member: 6239">The monk tatics mentioned also wouldn't work on a hill giant, and probably not a ogre or troll either.  Eliminating some tatic for one person is something you live with.  The fireball happy mage cast cone of cold on the red dragon, the fireball he has maxxed out.  Whining about the centaur doesn't prove that the test is unfair.  So he matches your speed, a flying wizard exceeds it.  Suck it up and don't grapple him.  If one centaur ruins a monk, they are even crappier than I thought.Fine, give the cenaur +2 ECL.  That still puts the party at 3 level 6s and 2 level 5s.  The average is BELOW 6!  I think you are just trying to make excuses for this test failing before it even happens.One more time.  The discussion here is about a CR 7 on APL 5 unless you are talking about the CR system in general, and then you are in the wrong thread.  Maybe I should check to see if there were one of those threads too.  I fail to see the relavance of level 12, 14, 15, and 16 characters.  If you wish to provide different secnarios, be my guest.  CRs were not meant to be second guessed on every encounter.  I don't believe they are perfect, but they make a prediction about how the fight will come out.  Something solid, not just guess work.  If you can show by rules, besides rule 0, that this calculation is wrong, I will happily withdraw my argument.  But don't just wine that CR doesn't work.  I have come up with stories and theories to counter yours, come up with rules that counter my rules.you forgot haste <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  haste, invis out of sight of the party.  move up and fireball then invis again.  Wash, Rinse, Repeat.  MM for the rougues, some summoned cannon fodder for the fighters still up, and I will have every buff I can by the time they get to me.  Who needs 4th level spells <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Cheap, yes, but I imagine that is how the wizard would do it.Hey, monk isn't the only one that can run, especially in his own catacombs.  <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />  Add the fact that the rouge can open with a fireball by use magic device and does +4d6 damage on every sneak attack.  A barbarian, in a 5' wide spriral hallway, could take at least a few of them, unless they have presise shot and are just behind the first character.  Number probably would win, but there has NEVER been question of that.Long enough to deal 35 to 50% losses on the party or get away.  I say they would all do it better than the monk.</blockquote>

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