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Message: <blockquote data-quote="LokiDR" data-source="post: 310607" data-attributes="member: 6239">First, thank you for the tatical advice.  I wanted to know how people used monks to be efficient.  I don't think that incapcitating is useless, far from it.  My only point here has been that a level 7 monk, with time to prepare, should be able to do some noticable damage to party, the same way a hill giant would do some noticable damage.  I could not see how a monk was going to pull this off, and thought that the party would just blow him off.  This would have shown that monks just don't have the umph for combat at this level, which does weaken the whole class as a good portion of D&D is combat.  I realized the combat didn't have to be "run up and fight".  It could be any tatics the monk wanted to do.  I wanted to see what tatics would work since I don't what monks do.As for "builds"  you are right.  Personality is a big difference between characters, but I can make a rogue that ignores pick lock, disable device, and even search and still be a viable character.  The skills mention are still good, and other characters would take them up.  If these choices don't really exsist for the monk, i.e. you should always use skill points on tumble, move silent, and hide and should always use your leveling feats for spring attack, then I would call the class poorly designed.  In that case, they didn't really design a class, but a character without a personality.Some feats are bad to take with a given fighter.  Most feats seem bad to take with the monk.  I want to know if this really is the case, or are there other "builds" for monk that are more than just pale shadows of a diffent class doing the same thing.  An example would be a monk with a crossbow.  You are no more effective with that bow than a cleric, and the cleric has spells.  You have range, so movement is a lot less of a question.  How can a monk with a crossbow be considered "good"?  I agree, it might be prudent to carry one, but to focus on the crossbow seems...weak.  Crossbow is only a really good choice for a rogue for the sneak attack.As for CR, your CR calculator, ECL, APL, and the fight, a few quick thoughts.  Ok, reincarnated centar is a boost.  I will give you that.  But isn't it ballance at least by knowing the terain and having control of it?  Also, the monk I think I am going to use is kitted as a character, not an NPC, so there is more to favor the monk.  Finally, the monk got a good deal of thought and disscussion, which should make him deadlier.  If it was another class, I would see the character doing a lot of damage.  I didn't think the monk could do anything.  I have slowly changed my mind on that.  I don't see the CR discussion as being anything more than way to show through the rules that the monk shouldn't suck in the encounter.  As for the calculator, I have nothing against it, just wasn't offical.  This discussion has pointed out several holes in game where monks are concerned, why would this be any diffenent?Well, the fight is in few days, so the proof will be coming.</blockquote>

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