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<blockquote data-quote="Cognomen's Cassowary" data-source="post: 6911979" data-attributes="member: 6801445">@<a href="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6748898" target="_blank">ad_hoc</a> It's not that I necessarily think you're wrong, but you skip over consideration of the attack role and saving throw of fire bolt and vicious mockery respectively. Back of the envelope, it looks to me like you're 10% more likely to hit the hill giant with a spell attack than you are to land vicious mockery. Assuming a +4 Cha/Int mod, that's a 75% chance to hit vs. a 65% chance to mock viciously. The attack also has the chance to crit. Thus, average damage when casting fire bolt against the hill giant is 11*0.7+2*11*0.05=8.8. The average damage of vicious mockery is 5*0.65=3.25.When the giant attacks, its first attack has a 65% chance to have disadvantage. 18*(0.3025*0.65+0.55*0.35)=~7.00 damage. You've reduced its damage per round from 19.8 to 16.9, a loss of 14.6%.Relative to casting fire bolt, the player has reduced his or her damage by 63% to reduce the giant's by 14.6%.I've only just roughed this out in the last few minutes, and it's absent of context, and it's only one example, etc. I don't think it's at all conclusive, but I do continue to question the value of vicious mockery. Granted, it is just about the only offensive cantrip available to bards, but then they also have proficiency in short bows.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cognomen's Cassowary, post: 6911979, member: 6801445"] @[I][B][U][URL="http://www.enworld.org/forum/member.php?u=6748898"]ad_hoc[/URL][/U][/B][/I] It's not that I necessarily think you're wrong, but you skip over consideration of the attack role and saving throw of fire bolt and vicious mockery respectively. Back of the envelope, it looks to me like you're 10% more likely to hit the hill giant with a spell attack than you are to land vicious mockery. Assuming a +4 Cha/Int mod, that's a 75% chance to hit vs. a 65% chance to mock viciously. The attack also has the chance to crit. Thus, average damage when casting fire bolt against the hill giant is 11*0.7+2*11*0.05=8.8. The average damage of vicious mockery is 5*0.65=3.25. When the giant attacks, its first attack has a 65% chance to have disadvantage. 18*(0.3025*0.65+0.55*0.35)=~7.00 damage. You've reduced its damage per round from 19.8 to 16.9, a loss of 14.6%. Relative to casting fire bolt, the player has reduced his or her damage by 63% to reduce the giant's by 14.6%. I've only just roughed this out in the last few minutes, and it's absent of context, and it's only one example, etc. I don't think it's at all conclusive, but I do continue to question the value of vicious mockery. Granted, it is just about the only offensive cantrip available to bards, but then they also have proficiency in short bows. [/QUOTE]

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