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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Cbas_10" data-source="post: 3857337" data-attributes="member: 55767">Well, I certainly did not intend to challenge your authority, there, especially as I was not singling out a particular MMO.  I was referring to the style of play.  In an MMO, the game is about killing things, powering up, reapeat.  It really is fun, and I'm not knocking it.  RPGs include that, of course...but also take it into the realms of personal interactions, mysteries, depths of character development (that will vary, based on the tastes of each group), and virtually any sort of plot and story arc that the DMs/players can imagine.  My point was that I felt that too much of the MMO style is being introduced, limiting the role-playing aspect.  Limiting the choice.  At least before, we had the option of high or low drama, gritty or fantastic adventuring, etc.Well, there is a vast difference in complexity, comparing a Balor to a Beholder, but I see your point in that case.  However, I would also say that by the time a group of players gets to 19th+ level, the DM would have built up the experience needed for running and organizing such encounters.  Some DMs and players opt for jumping right to the top, skipping levels and such.  Thus, they are biting off more than they can chew, going for the advanced, complex stuff before getting used to the basics and intermediate activities.  Not a good idea, no matter what game or hobby.Very, very good point.  But the complex manually operated cameras are still being used by the professionals.  Two markets.  Basic and Advanced.  The photography industry, including the professionals, were never forced to go to the simpler cameras and abandon old techniques.  I cannot see the future of D&D and I don't know what will be in the 4e books, but from the previews we've seen so far....this is the impression I get.Actually, Sorcerer 20/Wizard 10/Archmage 2, but I understand that you have feelings about a Wiz 10/Sor 10 character.  Not sure what is not pretty about that sort of character.  That sort of character is a low-level spell machine.  Trade high level spells and ability to punch through spell resistance for a horde of lower-level spells.  Not everything out there has SR, anyway.  I could go on, but Wiz10/Sor10 is not a bad concept....unless you are putting that character in a position and asking of it to do things that it is obviously not made to do.  If you need to have high level spells and want to get through SR everytime, make a single-class at 20.  If you want a gaggle of lower-level spells and realize the utility of such, make the 10/10.  You can't have both.  It is not even logical.  4e has (thus far) implied that you can have your cake and eat it, too.  Like that Gestault idea from one of the off-core rulebook options.Well, I don't count the skill of Diplomacy as proof of role-playing.  Maybe a skill like that is a bit of mechanical assist, but it certainly is not role-playing on its own.  Regarding 4e's possible deemphasis on role-playing, my concerns about that come from the fact that we have seen absolutely nothing but crunchy combat, references to Bo9S (chock full of more fighting and combat), and references to "Social Encounters" that give the impression that we will be dicing out conversations with NPCs instead of actually talking to each other at the table.  Finally, I do actually think that including such things as Professions on a character sheet indirectly increases role-playing in D&D; because you are including such things on the sheet, you are demonstrating that there is more depth to the character than simply being an aimless wanderer killing things and selling loot.  Since it is something you devote points to on your sheet, you will want to make use of it in the game by enriching your character and game experience with it.  Nobody is forcing anyone to take points away from an optimal build or stop you from maxing out skills for combat....we have those options open to us.I am well aware that players can have brewers and diplomatic characters without those skills on the sheets anymore (I'm not sure if they will be in 4e or not), but their absence will just show that the game itself is no longer meant for them and does not support those actions.  I'd rather have aspects in the game that we can pick and choose from and ignore bits of instead of having fewer options, thus restricting our styles of play.  Bo9S is an awesome suppliment for groups who want to use it, but it is not something I want to see in the core classes in my games.  Some of you might like it, but that is all good.  I don't, and it influences my decisions about whether or not I want to go to 4e.</blockquote>

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