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<blockquote data-quote="Runestar" data-source="post: 4597328" data-attributes="member: 72317">Well, you ideally want a +26 to your saves so you at least have a 50% chance of making it. Here's the expanded version. Again, thanks to dicefreaks (if any of you are here) for coming up with it in the first place. Again, I must stress that this is not how you must run your game, but more a guideline to let you know how your PC can be expected to fare in epic.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile&nbsp; &nbsp; :)"&nbsp; data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />[sblock]&nbsp; &nbsp; <ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Attacks&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Non-templated CR 21 creatures averaged an AC of 37, with a standard&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; deviation of 6. This means that most of the armor classes for CR 21&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; creatures can be found in a spread between AC 25 and AC 49. If we take the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Mu Spore out (since it is significantly lower in its AC), we get an&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; average AC of 40, with a standard deviation of only 2. This gives us a&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; tighter, more realistic figure to work with (AC will tend to be between 36&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and 44). This means that a 21st level tank, whose iconic role is to&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; be able to hit and hurt, needs to have an attack bonus that hits AC 40&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; on as many attacks as possible. This does not take into account the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; higher AC average for paragon creatures (50, std dev 2).</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Touch Attacks Once&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; again, I've taken the Mu Spore out of the mix of analysis - a quick look&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; at its stats will show why I treat it as an anomaly in the AC dept! Average&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; touch AC is only 15 (std dev 2). This figure is a lot easier to hit,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; but should not be easily obtained with a magic item (eg a&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; perma-wraithstrike weapon should not be cheap!). Feats, class abilities,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; expensive magic items - these are all appropriate ways to target a touch&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; AC instead of a full AC for a tank or other weapon-user (as opposed to&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; spell/power-user). This stat may be more important to focus on for the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; wizard or other spellcaster; ranged touch attack spells often have no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; saving throw, so they should quickly become a mainstay of your offense. Paragon&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; creatures average touch AC 42 (std dev 3).</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Flat-footed Attacks&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Only slightly better than true AC, the average for flat-footed AC here&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (sans the Mu Spore) is 37 (std dev 5). Paragons are only&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; slightly higher at 41 (std dev 3).</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Armor Class Since&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; non-paragon creatures average first attacks of +37 (std dev is 4,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; so generally the best you will face for CR 21 is an attack bonus of no&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; more than +45 - I don't have paragon figures yet), you want an AC of at&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; least 10 pts higher - 47. This means the creature has a 50% chance of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; hitting you on its primary attacks. More importantly, it means that the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; monster can't treat you as a Power Attack magnet. If a creature can&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; hit you harder and still hit, it generally will do so (short of DM plot&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; device).</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Hit Points How tough&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; should you be? This is a difficult question, since you should be relying&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; on some buffs in combat, plus healing, to mitigate what may be relatively&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; low hit points. CR 21 creatures (not paragon) average 122 pts of damage&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; in a round where they hit with all their attacks (includes additional&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; damage for chance of crits). You probably want to have hp about 150% of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that figure - 183hp - at a minimum if you are going toe to toe. If you&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; have a higher AC than is strictly needed, or decent fast&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; healing/regen/damage reduction, or other generally effective damage&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; countermeasures (total concealment - beware of true seeing - can help&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; offset lower hp, for example), you can get by on less. But if you have&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; less than the 183hp, you run the risk of dying in a single round - better&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; hope you have a cleric handy with revivify on hand (or, even better, a&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; contingent version!).</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Special Ability save DCs&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; At 21st level, you can still hope for some save or die spells to be of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; use. Average Fort saves (not paragon) are +25; Ref saves are about +20;&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Will saves are about +21. Your special ability save DCs need to offer some&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; chance of breaking through those saves. If you have limited access to the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ability, you would want at least a 50% chance of getting through the saving&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; throws. If you have extensive access, and are willing to spam the use of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the ability, you might accept as low as a 10% chance (20% is better,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; obviously). The guidelines assume the former situation - limited&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; availability - in which case save DCs should aim for a DC of 35.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; This is already quite difficult to do, and may not be worth the wealth&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; impact (eg a Str based special ability could have a DC of 10 + 1/2 levels&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (21) + Str mod (needs 40 in this case) to hit the suggested DC. If you&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; start with a 20 in Str (18 + racial mod), spend all your level increases&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to 21st level on Str (+5), have an inherent +5 bonus to Str (+5), you&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; would still need to depend on an item of Str +6 and a spell that grants a&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; non-enhancement bonus to Str of +4 in order to hit that DC). Note that&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; some abilities become increasingly redundant in epic levels -&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; mind-affecting spells, for example. As the needed DC increases, you will&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; find that limited availability special abilities with saves simply aren't&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; worth focusing on from a numbers point of view.</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Skills - Where&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; opposed skills are a concern, the monsters at CR 21 (non-paragon) have an&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; average of 32 Hit Dice. That means that their best skills will be at 35&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ranks, plus ability modifiers. You should expect to need a +40 in&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; skills that involve opposed checks, in order to be on roughly even&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; footing. To be effective, increase by 10 to +50. If you are relying on&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; feinting on combat...you will find it increasingly harder to use it&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; effectively (since BAB plus Sense Motive check is involved for the monster&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; - not good when facing most epic Outsiders in particular!).</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Damage - CR 21&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; creatures average 385hp, but also tend to have fast healing, damage&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; reduction, regeneration, resistances, or immunities as damage-mitigators. If&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; you aim for 1/4 of that total per round, or 96hp damage per round as a&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; minimum, you should be able to punch through those hp fairly quickly&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (which is important - protracted fights drain more resources, and many&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; epic creatures simply have too much staying power for you to afford a long&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; battle with them). This damage dealing ability should be looked at over&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the entire party, such that one character can be in excess of this amount,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; and another beneath, so long as it all adds up to 4 x 96. Note that the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; fewer the number of attacks that you have that you deal the damage in, the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; better - because that way more damage affects the creature, instead of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; being deflected away with damage mitigators.</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Saves - SLA save DCs&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; are lower than SuA or ExA save DCs at this stage, so the focus is on SuA and&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; ExA save DCs from the monsters. The key number is 26 - 10 less than the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; average for such abilities at this CR. If your worst save equals 26,&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; then you will pass your saves better than 50% of the time. Generally&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; speaking, Reflex saves can be lower than this figure, due to the lack of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; save-or-die (or similar) Reflex save effects/abilities.</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Speed and&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Maneuverability - It is much harder to provide a definite speed&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; requirement for a 21st level PC than with many other figures. It is&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; perhaps more important to understand the speed of the enemies, and prepare&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; accordingly. Land speeds, for creatures that rely on them, are now at&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; least 40 ft or better, and generally 60 ft. Flight speed of the chichimec&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; is 200 ft (perfect), and dragons are pulling up to 300 ft. (admittedly&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; with far worse maneuverability...but that speed should not be&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; discounted!). To top it off, many Outsiders have already have greater&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; teleport at will for several CR ratings prior to this point, meaning&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; that even if land speed is down, the ability to quickly seize an&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; opportunity remains a huge advantage to the enemy - if you allow it to be.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; I would suggest that long-term flight be available to a 21st level PC (the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; fly spell by itself may suffice for your purposes, depending on&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; your strategy with dealing with faster creatures), and generally I have&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; seen PCs using my guidelines prefer to bump their speed up to much higher&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; levels - such as fly 150 ft., using the ring of solar wings, and&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; even higher by coupling with the admittedly-in-need-of-revision boots of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; swiftness. Haste increases speed, if you want to do things on&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; the cheap - and that includes fly speeds - such that you can fly 90 ft (or&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; 70 ft in medium or heavy armor) with the application of only two&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; relatively low level spells. You can get around being slower than your&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; enemy if you have to, but it is better to at least be comparable. Sun Tzu&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; wrote &quot;&quot;What is of the greatest importance in war is&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; extraordinary speed: One cannot afford to neglect opportunity.&quot; If&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; your enemy is more mobile and more versatile than your are, then the&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; battle will often not go well for you. Another Sun Tzu quote for you all:&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &quot;Speed is the essence of war. Take advantage of the enemy's&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; unpreparedness; travel by unexpected routes and strike him where has taken&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; no precautions.&quot;</li>
</ul><ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Resistances and&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Immunities - The final comment I have to make on play at this level is&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; to take note of those attacks which kill you quickly. Death effects are&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; nasty, so immunity is important. Same with negative levels. Sheltered&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; vitality protects against ability damage, spell immunity should&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; probably include any of the blasphemy type spells in its list of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; what you are protected against, and disjunction can be&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; counterspelled with a Contingent Spell of the same name set up for that&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; purpose. Clerics should be packing revivify, energy immunity&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; (or at least protection from energy and resist energy), your&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; typical heals and restorations, and a whole lot of other&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; useful spells. Don't fool yourself into thinking that grappling will go&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; your way at epic levels! Pack an item with continuous freedom of&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; movement, or else go the Contingent Spell route again and do what you&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; can to protect against the contingency being dispelled. There is an awful&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; lot that could be considered here, so I can really only say: be prepared.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; You're supposed to have fought your way through to 21st level, so you&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; should already be aware of the sorts of high level attacks you would face.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; Reduce their impact ahead of time, as much as possible.</li>
</ul>&nbsp; [/sblock]I posted this because I felt that while all the various buffing was cumbersome, it was ultimately necessary evil. Epic is just plain brutal, with many design tenets being thrown out of the window. My main concern was that in simplifying the system (heck, I too would love a more streamlined version), you end up making the PCs too weak. For example, I think epic was designed around the assumption that PCs were pretty much immune to everything (or could at least access a countermeasure within a very short period of time). Look at the way racial HD (and consequently, other factors such as saves, save DCs and bab scale out of whack as well). You can't just fix one aspect and leave the other part untouched.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Runestar, post: 4597328, member: 72317"] Well, you ideally want a +26 to your saves so you at least have a 50% chance of making it. Here's the expanded version. Again, thanks to dicefreaks (if any of you are here) for coming up with it in the first place. Again, I must stress that this is not how you must run your game, but more a guideline to let you know how your PC can be expected to fare in epic.:) [sblock] [LIST] [*][B]Attacks[/B] Non-templated CR 21 creatures averaged an AC of 37, with a standard deviation of 6. This means that most of the armor classes for CR 21 creatures can be found in a spread between AC 25 and AC 49. If we take the Mu Spore out (since it is significantly lower in its AC), we get an average AC of 40, with a standard deviation of only 2. This gives us a tighter, more realistic figure to work with (AC will tend to be between 36 and 44). This means that [B]a 21st level tank[/B], whose iconic role is to be able to hit and hurt, [B]needs to have an attack bonus that hits AC 40 on as many attacks as possible.[/B] This does not take into account the higher AC average for paragon creatures (50, std dev 2). [/LIST] [LIST] [*][B]Touch Attacks[/B] Once again, I've taken the Mu Spore out of the mix of analysis - a quick look at its stats will show why I treat it as an anomaly in the AC dept! [B]Average touch AC is only 15 (std dev 2). [/B]This figure is a lot easier to hit, but should not be easily obtained with a magic item (eg a perma-wraithstrike weapon should not be cheap!). Feats, class abilities, expensive magic items - these are all appropriate ways to target a touch AC instead of a full AC for a tank or other weapon-user (as opposed to spell/power-user). This stat may be more important to focus on for the wizard or other spellcaster; ranged touch attack spells often have no saving throw, so they should quickly become a mainstay of your offense. [B]Paragon creatures average touch AC 42 (std dev 3).[/B] [/LIST] [LIST] [*][B]Flat-footed Attacks[/B] Only slightly better than true AC, [B]the average for flat-footed AC here (sans the Mu Spore) is 37 (std dev 5)[/B]. [B]Paragons [/B]are only slightly higher [B]at 41 (std dev 3).[/B] [/LIST] [LIST] [*][B]Armor Class[/B] Since non-paragon creatures [B]average first attacks of +37 [/B](std dev is 4, so generally the best you will face for CR 21 is an attack bonus of no more than +45 - I don't have paragon figures yet), [B]you want an AC of at least 10 pts higher - 47. [/B]This means the creature has a 50% chance of hitting you on its primary attacks. More importantly, it means that the monster can't treat you as a [B]Power Attack magnet.[/B] If a creature [I]can[/I] hit you harder and still hit, it generally will do so (short of DM plot device). [/LIST] [LIST] [*][B]Hit Points[/B] How tough should you be? This is a difficult question, since you should be relying on some buffs in combat, plus healing, to mitigate what may be relatively low hit points. CR 21 creatures (not paragon) average [B]122 pts of damage in a round [/B]where they hit with all their attacks (includes additional damage for chance of crits). You probably want to have hp about 150% of that figure - 183hp - at a minimum if you are going toe to toe. If you have a higher AC than is strictly needed, or decent fast healing/regen/damage reduction, or other generally effective damage countermeasures (total concealment - beware of true seeing - can help offset lower hp, for example), you can get by on less. But if you have less than the 183hp, you run the risk of dying in a single round - better hope you have a cleric handy with revivify on hand (or, even better, a contingent version!). [/LIST] [LIST] [*][B]Special Ability save DCs[/B] At 21st level, you can still hope for some save or die spells to be of use. Average Fort saves (not paragon) are +25; Ref saves are about +20; Will saves are about +21. Your special ability save DCs need to offer some chance of breaking through those saves. If you have limited access to the ability, you would want at least a 50% chance of getting through the saving throws. If you have extensive access, and are willing to spam the use of the ability, you might accept as low as a 10% chance (20% is better, obviously). The guidelines assume the former situation - limited availability - in which case [B]save DCs should aim for a DC of 35.[/B] This is already quite difficult to do, and may not be worth the wealth impact (eg a Str based special ability could have a DC of 10 + 1/2 levels (21) + Str mod (needs 40 in this case) to hit the suggested DC. If you start with a 20 in Str (18 + racial mod), spend all your level increases to 21st level on Str (+5), have an inherent +5 bonus to Str (+5), you would still need to depend on an item of Str +6 and a spell that grants a non-enhancement bonus to Str of +4 in order to hit that DC). Note that some abilities become increasingly redundant in epic levels - mind-affecting spells, for example. As the needed DC increases, you will find that limited availability special abilities with saves simply aren't worth focusing on from a numbers point of view. [/LIST] [LIST] [*][B]Skills[/B] - Where opposed skills are a concern, the monsters at CR 21 (non-paragon) have an average of 32 Hit Dice. That means that their best skills will be at 35 ranks, plus ability modifiers. [B]You should expect to need a +40 in skills that involve opposed checks, in order to be on roughly even footing. To be effective, increase by 10 to +50. [/B]If you are relying on feinting on combat...you will find it increasingly harder to use it effectively (since BAB plus Sense Motive check is involved for the monster - not good when facing most epic Outsiders in particular!). [/LIST] [LIST] [*][B]Damage [/B]- CR 21 creatures average 385hp, but also tend to have fast healing, damage reduction, regeneration, resistances, or immunities as damage-mitigators. [B]If you aim for 1/4 of that total per round, or 96hp damage per round as a minimum, you should be able to punch through those hp fairly quickly[/B] (which is important - protracted fights drain more resources, and many epic creatures simply have too much staying power for you to afford a long battle with them). This damage dealing ability should be looked at over the entire party, such that one character can be in excess of this amount, and another beneath, so long as it all adds up to 4 x 96. [B]Note that the fewer the number of attacks that you have that you deal the damage in, the better - because that way more damage affects the creature, instead of being deflected away with damage mitigators.[/B] [/LIST] [LIST] [*][B]Saves [/B]- SLA save DCs are lower than SuA or ExA save DCs at this stage, so the focus is on SuA and ExA save DCs from the monsters. The key number is 26 - 10 less than the average for such abilities at this CR. [B]If your worst save equals 26, then you will pass your saves better than 50% of the time. [/B]Generally speaking, Reflex saves can be lower than this figure, due to the lack of save-or-die (or similar) Reflex save effects/abilities. [/LIST] [LIST] [*][B]Speed and Maneuverability[/B] - It is much harder to provide a definite speed requirement for a 21st level PC than with many other figures. It is perhaps more important to understand the speed of the enemies, and prepare accordingly. Land speeds, for creatures that rely on them, are now at least 40 ft or better, and generally 60 ft. Flight speed of the chichimec is 200 ft (perfect), and dragons are pulling up to 300 ft. (admittedly with far worse maneuverability...but that speed should not be discounted!). To top it off, many Outsiders have already have [I]greater teleport[/I] at will for several CR ratings prior to this point, meaning that even if land speed is down, the ability to quickly seize an opportunity remains a huge advantage to the enemy - if you allow it to be. I would suggest that long-term flight be available to a 21st level PC (the [I]fly[/I] spell by itself may suffice for your purposes, depending on your strategy with dealing with faster creatures), and generally I have seen PCs using my guidelines prefer to bump their speed up to much higher levels - such as fly 150 ft., using the [I]ring of solar wings[/I], and even higher by coupling with the admittedly-in-need-of-revision [I]boots of swiftness[/I]. [I]Haste[/I] increases speed, if you want to do things on the cheap - and that includes fly speeds - such that you can fly 90 ft (or 70 ft in medium or heavy armor) with the application of only two relatively low level spells. You can get around being slower than your enemy if you have to, but it is better to at least be comparable. Sun Tzu wrote ""What is of the greatest importance in war is extraordinary speed: One cannot afford to neglect opportunity." If your enemy is more mobile and more versatile than your are, then the battle will often not go well for you. Another Sun Tzu quote for you all: "Speed is the essence of war. Take advantage of the enemy's unpreparedness; travel by unexpected routes and strike him where has taken no precautions." [/LIST] [LIST] [*][B]Resistances and Immunities[/B] - The final comment I have to make on play at this level is to take note of those attacks which kill you quickly. Death effects are nasty, so immunity is important. Same with negative levels. [I]Sheltered vitality[/I] protects against ability damage, [I]spell immunity[/I] should probably include any of the [I]blasphemy[/I] type spells in its list of what you are protected against, and [I]disjunction[/I] can be counterspelled with a Contingent Spell of the same name set up for that purpose. Clerics should be packing [I]revivify[/I], [I]energy immunity[/I] (or at least [I]protection from energy[/I] and [I]resist energy[/I]), your typical [I]heals[/I] and [I]restorations[/I], and a whole lot of other useful spells. [B]Don't fool yourself into thinking that grappling will go your way at epic levels! [/B]Pack an item with continuous [I]freedom of movement[/I], or else go the Contingent Spell route again and do what you can to protect against the contingency being dispelled. There is an awful lot that could be considered here, so I can really only say: be prepared. You're supposed to have fought your way through to 21st level, so you should already be aware of the sorts of high level attacks you would face. Reduce their impact ahead of time, as much as possible. [/LIST] [/sblock] I posted this because I felt that while all the various buffing was cumbersome, it was ultimately necessary evil. Epic is just plain brutal, with many design tenets being thrown out of the window. My main concern was that in simplifying the system (heck, I too would love a more streamlined version), you end up making the PCs too weak. For example, I think epic was designed around the assumption that PCs were pretty much immune to everything (or could at least access a countermeasure within a very short period of time). Look at the way racial HD (and consequently, other factors such as saves, save DCs and bab scale out of whack as well). You can't just fix one aspect and leave the other part untouched. [/QUOTE]

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