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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Runestar" data-source="post: 4598137" data-attributes="member: 72317">May I be directed to where these revised crs may be found?<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />I agree that the crs may be faulty (for instance, look at the back of fiendish codex, which revised the crs of many existing monsters. The Klurichir got the biggest cut, from cr25 all the way down to cr17!). However, it may not be easy determining which are accurate, moreso what an appropriate cr should be. Being a 3e splatbook, it is highly possible that many underlying assumptions once thought reasonable back then, are no longer valid in 3.5.One problem I felt is that there is simply too many ways of playing dnd, largely because of the numerous ways of assembling a party. So a cr which may be "balanced" for one party may be too easy or difficult for another.But if you are running an epic campaign using the ELH monsters as written, than those guidelines would apply. Naturally, if you reworked their stats, then everything changes.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Neither is auto-failing a save. I agree the problem is somewhat in the rules. For instance, the save DC for an extraordinary or SU ability is typically 10+1/2HD+stat mod, but there is no real correlation between HD and cr. And the designers' solution to making sure monsters remain a challenge is simply to pile on more HD (so as to improve their saves, hp and bab). Meaning that DCs tend to scale much faster than saves anyways. In a more extreme case, consider a half-fiend great wyrm red dragon. Blasphemy at caster lv40. You either make yourself immune via silence or greater spell immunity, or die instantly. No other way around it. Look at the demilich - whose DCs are 10+HD+cha mod, rather than 1/2HD. No PC can expect to make his save against that (at least, not without ToB). The only way to survive such an encounter is to "cheat" and pile on the immunities prior to facing one. Consider it the lesser of 2 evils, if you must.<img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f631.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":eek:" title="Eek!    :eek:"  data-smilie="9"data-shortname=":eek:" /></blockquote>

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