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Message: <blockquote data-quote="apsuman" data-source="post: 1945721" data-attributes="member: 1769">and I will go down yours.  The key theme here is that you seem to imply (or I infer) that you think metamagic is useless unless is benefits a wizard character in combat.You seem to ignore that sorcerers benefit greatly (more than wizards) from metamagic.  Also given the number of caster classes in the game, and especially the need for specialized NPCs there are many feats (metamagic and non-metamagic) that are really made for them.  A paladin tha wants his bless to last twice as long might want to take extend, none of my paladin characters mind you but still, one might want to do it.It is true that average results are, well, average.  The more dice (10d6 vs. 6d6) the greater likelyhood of an average result.  A regression toward the mean.  Empower is awesome.  And for the record, most metamagics are not as good as casting the spell twice -- I really don't get your point there.  Two fireballs are better than one empowered fireball -- true but not as good as two empowered fireballs, or one empower fireball and one not.I disagree (again)"Most combat spells have good ranges"? But given the Hp of sorcerer types isn't more distance your friend?  Also, there are plenty of good non combat spells that benefit from an extended range.  And finally from the SRD:In other words if you were to cast a fireball so the point of origin were at the extreme limit of your range you would instead make a fire hemisphere.Trade off :  A)casting one level 2 spell or  B)cast two level 1 spells.  A takes fewer spell slots.  A takes fewer actions.  And, if the base spell were level 3 instead of level 1 then you look at casting one level 4 slot and saving both of those level 3 slots for fireballs (or what not).Everything you said is true.  However, If you want to increse the save of the spell without forever taking away one of your known spells of X level then Heighten is the way to go.An exampleSpells have a save of 10 + spell level + caster's ability modifierAn 18th level sorcerer with a CHA of 26 casts charm person:As a first level spell is has a DC of  10 + 1 + 8 = 19As a ninth level spell is has a DC of 10 + 9 + 8 = 27An 18th level fighter, ranger, barbarian, rogue has a will save of +6 lets add +3 from having an effect Wisdom of 16 from magic or whatever.Saving against a first level charm person they have to roll a 10+ (55% success) Saving against a ninthe level charm person they have to roll an 18+ (15% success)True.  But the wizard would have to have those other spells prepared, and a sorcerer would have to know those other spells.  I do not like maximize as much as empower but it has it's place.Just because there are some feats that casters would only want to take at higher levels does not make them bad feats.And in your example above, you seemed to express casting the high level spell first, then casting a quickened spell.  How about the other way around?  Cast  quickened Magic missile then an empowered lightning bolt.  Or quickened grease followed by Wall of stone, or quickened true strike followed by disentegrate.All excellent suggestions for alternative rule play.  Given their greater number of spell slots, sorcerers pay little to cast Silent and Still versions of their spells.Widen would change a fireball to include a 40 foot radius spread.A normal fireball cast in a area with no obstructions would fill a volume of :4/3 * pi * r^3  or  4/3*pi* 8000 = 32000/3 * pi = 10666*pi cubic feet.A widened fireball would fill a volume of 4/3 * pi * 40^3  =4/3 * pi * 64000 = 256000/3 * pi85333 * pi cubic feetAn area eight times as much.  That means you could cast 8 fireballs for the price of casting one widened fireball.And for fairness sake, since most of the time you would not be fighting in a 3d environment were there are bad guys in exactly the right spot, let us look at a fireball in terms of area, that is if there were a horde or orcs all on a flat surface.The area of a normal fireball is pi * r^2 or 400*pi square feetThe area of a widened fireball is 40 ^ 2 * pi1600 * pi square feet.so, it's like four fireballs for the price of casting one at a +3 level adjustment.All wizards all of the time, sigh.  Sorcerers do not have infinite known spells.  And Wizards do not have infinite spell books (well, maybe yours do).  Then you must have some boring wizards.</blockquote>

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