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<blockquote data-quote="Cruentus" data-source="post: 8724162" data-attributes="member: 7034645">I'm not saying that you're saying this, but if this is the case, why include ambushes?&nbsp; Why include traps?&nbsp; Why include secret doors?&nbsp; Why include clues at all?&nbsp; Why include surprise?&nbsp; I find that players in 5e, IME at my table, want all of the above to go away.&nbsp; They want complete control of the situation, don't want to be under any threat, or uncertainty.&nbsp; They certainly never want to take damage, and even under 5e games with no optional rules, will undergo 5 minute work days to be at maximum health and nova ability.&nbsp; I mean, what is the point of even playing a &quot;game&quot; when you want to remove the game element from it?&nbsp; No danger?&nbsp; No chance of being ambushed?&nbsp; Everything laid out?&nbsp; What's the point?&nbsp; And that is what I see a lot of the arguments around Perception falling into: I don't want to ever fail.&nbsp; I want to see everything.&nbsp; I don't want to auto-fail, and I certainly have built my character to have as close to a 95% chance of success as possible, 100% if I take Lucky!&nbsp; We switched from 5e to Basic for this exact reason.&nbsp; No Perception skill.&nbsp; No skills at all.&nbsp; You want to figure something out, you figure it out.&nbsp; Sometimes the DM will call for an ability roll, but that's not always the same ability, depending on what you do and situation.&nbsp; So its not as easy as just maximizing certain things.&nbsp; Hell, my Fighter's maximum ability score is 12.&nbsp; 12!&nbsp; Can you imagine the horror of 5e players?!?&nbsp; Even ability checks aren't even a 50/50 for me a lot of the time.&nbsp; And I managed to survive to 5th level.&nbsp; Imagine that.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cruentus, post: 8724162, member: 7034645"] I'm not saying that you're saying this, but if this is the case, why include ambushes? Why include traps? Why include secret doors? Why include clues at all? Why include surprise? I find that players in 5e, IME at my table, want all of the above to go away. They want complete control of the situation, don't want to be under any threat, or uncertainty. They certainly never want to take damage, and even under 5e games with no optional rules, will undergo 5 minute work days to be at maximum health and nova ability. I mean, what is the point of even playing a "game" when you want to remove the game element from it? No danger? No chance of being ambushed? Everything laid out? What's the point? And that is what I see a lot of the arguments around Perception falling into: I don't want to ever fail. I want to see everything. I don't want to auto-fail, and I certainly have built my character to have as close to a 95% chance of success as possible, 100% if I take Lucky! We switched from 5e to Basic for this exact reason. No Perception skill. No skills at all. You want to figure something out, you figure it out. Sometimes the DM will call for an ability roll, but that's not always the same ability, depending on what you do and situation. So its not as easy as just maximizing certain things. Hell, my Fighter's maximum ability score is 12. 12! Can you imagine the horror of 5e players?!? Even ability checks aren't even a 50/50 for me a lot of the time. And I managed to survive to 5th level. Imagine that. [/QUOTE]

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