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<blockquote data-quote="Cruentus" data-source="post: 8724351" data-attributes="member: 7034645">I wasn't trying to be hyberbolic, and like I said, this IS my experience at my table. What is the upside?&nbsp; How do you play the game then?&nbsp; If traps, secret doors, ambushes and surprise are so horrible that they should ALWAYS be avoided, then why have them?&nbsp; What is the fun in their inclusion?&nbsp; I ask these questions mostly rhetorically by the way.&nbsp; The game has systems built into it to handle these types of situations.&nbsp; People apply those systems differently at different tables.&nbsp; Different tables have different levels of tolerance of variablility, chance, and danger.&nbsp; Clearly there is a middle ground.&nbsp; But even bounded accuracy doesn't provide a middle ground.&nbsp; If the player(s) wants to maximize their Perception, and see and use it as an &quot;avoid all, see all stat&quot;, then that is their prerogative as a player, and the DM either supports that or doesn't.&nbsp; But it does appear that what the &quot;modern&quot; gamer is looking for in their game of dungeons and dragons has significantly shifted, as far as I have been able to tell.&nbsp; One could also argue that traps, ambushes, secret doors, and surprise interfere with player agency, and should be removed from the game, or be relegated to optional deep in the DMG.&nbsp; I mean, its just no fun to be caught by a trap.&nbsp; Or to not be able to react to an ambush.&nbsp; Or to miss a secret door... My players feel this way.&nbsp; If you do anything that they absolutely 100% can't see coming, or avoid, then, why, that's dirty pool old man!&nbsp; &quot;How come I didn't see the trap?&quot;&nbsp; &quot;Well, you failed the roll.&quot;&nbsp; &quot;But I would have looked again!&quot;...</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Cruentus, post: 8724351, member: 7034645"] I wasn't trying to be hyberbolic, and like I said, this IS my experience at my table. What is the upside? How do you play the game then? If traps, secret doors, ambushes and surprise are so horrible that they should ALWAYS be avoided, then why have them? What is the fun in their inclusion? I ask these questions mostly rhetorically by the way. The game has systems built into it to handle these types of situations. People apply those systems differently at different tables. Different tables have different levels of tolerance of variablility, chance, and danger. Clearly there is a middle ground. But even bounded accuracy doesn't provide a middle ground. If the player(s) wants to maximize their Perception, and see and use it as an "avoid all, see all stat", then that is their prerogative as a player, and the DM either supports that or doesn't. But it does appear that what the "modern" gamer is looking for in their game of dungeons and dragons has significantly shifted, as far as I have been able to tell. One could also argue that traps, ambushes, secret doors, and surprise interfere with player agency, and should be removed from the game, or be relegated to optional deep in the DMG. I mean, its just no fun to be caught by a trap. Or to not be able to react to an ambush. Or to miss a secret door... My players feel this way. If you do anything that they absolutely 100% can't see coming, or avoid, then, why, that's dirty pool old man! "How come I didn't see the trap?" "Well, you failed the roll." "But I would have looked again!"... [/QUOTE]

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