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<blockquote data-quote="James Gasik" data-source="post: 8724386" data-attributes="member: 6877472">See this is the problem.&nbsp; All these things are binary.&nbsp; Either you notice the traps/hidden doors/concealed enemies or you...don't.&nbsp; There's not much middle ground.&nbsp; If you're careful about the DC's, to the point that players don't need to invest, then all it takes is one guy who does and they see all the things.If you're like WotC (see my previous post on Sunless Citadel), many DC's are so high that you need investment or you'll miss a great deal.It's not fun to blunder into a scythe trap for d8 damage, or miss a crucial secret door, or be poisoned by a quasit.But it's also not fun if the only way to surprise players with these things is to set the DC's to ridiculous levels.The problem is, the game isn't built with any middle ground.&nbsp; A priest of the sea god with 16 Wisdom and the Sailor Background has a +5 Perception.&nbsp; That's enough to not be surprised by a quasit (picking on this creature because I just looked up it's Stealth +5).&nbsp; That's not enough to avoid being surprised by a Bugbear (Stealth +6).A DC 20 secret door?&nbsp; Yeah, only a 1 in 4 to spot it.Then along comes a Rogue with expertise in Perception, and it's not long before he trivializes all these checks, and if you use higher DC's to challenge them, the rest of the party suffers.So what's the right answer?&nbsp; Invest wisely in Perception to not have these problems, or...don't?</blockquote>

[QUOTE="James Gasik, post: 8724386, member: 6877472"] See this is the problem. All these things are binary. Either you notice the traps/hidden doors/concealed enemies or you...don't. There's not much middle ground. If you're careful about the DC's, to the point that players don't need to invest, then all it takes is one guy who does and they see all the things. If you're like WotC (see my previous post on Sunless Citadel), many DC's are so high that you [B]need [/B]investment or you'll miss a great deal. It's not fun to blunder into a scythe trap for d8 damage, or miss a crucial secret door, or be poisoned by a quasit. But it's also not fun if the only way to surprise players with these things is to set the DC's to ridiculous levels. The problem is, the game isn't built with any middle ground. A priest of the sea god with 16 Wisdom and the Sailor Background has a +5 Perception. That's enough to not be surprised by a quasit (picking on this creature because I just looked up it's Stealth +5). That's not enough to avoid being surprised by a Bugbear (Stealth +6). A DC 20 secret door? Yeah, only a 1 in 4 to spot it. Then along comes a Rogue with expertise in Perception, and it's not long before he trivializes all these checks, and if you use higher DC's to challenge them, the rest of the party suffers. So what's the right answer? Invest wisely in Perception to not have these problems, or...don't? [/QUOTE]

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