Menu
News
All News
Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
Pathfinder
Starfinder
Warhammer
2d20 System
Year Zero Engine
Industry News
Reviews
Dragon Reflections
Columns
Weekly Digests
Weekly News Digest
Freebies, Sales & Bundles
RPG Print News
RPG Crowdfunding News
Game Content
ENterplanetary DimENsions
Mythological Figures
Opinion
Worlds of Design
Peregrine's Next
RPG Evolution
Other Columns
From the Freelancing Frontline
Monster ENcyclopedia
WotC/TSR Alumni Look Back
4 Hours w/RSD (Ryan Dancey)
The Road to 3E (Jonathan Tweet)
Greenwood's Realms (Ed Greenwood)
Drawmij's TSR (Jim Ward)
Community
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Resources
Wiki
Pages
Latest activity
Media
New media
New comments
Search media
Downloads
Latest reviews
Search resources
EN Publishing
Store
EN5ider
Adventures in ZEITGEIST
Awfully Cheerful Engine
What's OLD is NEW
Judge Dredd & The Worlds Of 2000AD
War of the Burning Sky
Level Up: Advanced 5E
Events & Releases
Upcoming Events
Private Events
Featured Events
Socials!
Twitch
YouTube
Facebook (EN Publishing)
Facebook (EN World)
Twitter
Instagram
TikTok
Podcast
Features
Top 5 RPGs Compiled Charts 2004-Present
Adventure Game Industry Market Research Summary (RPGs) V1.0
Ryan Dancey: Acquiring TSR
Q&A With Gary Gygax
D&D Rules FAQs
TSR, WotC, & Paizo: A Comparative History
D&D Pronunciation Guide
Million Dollar TTRPG Kickstarters
Tabletop RPG Podcast Hall of Fame
Eric Noah's Unofficial D&D 3rd Edition News
D&D in the Mainstream
D&D & RPG History
About Morrus
Log in
Register
What's new
Search
Search
Search titles only
By:
Forums & Topics
Forum List
Latest Posts
Forum list
*Dungeons & Dragons
Level Up: Advanced 5th Edition
D&D Older Editions
*TTRPGs General
*Pathfinder & Starfinder
EN Publishing
*Geek Talk & Media
Search forums
Chat/Discord
Menu
Log in
Register
Install the app
Install
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What's your opinion on "Save or Die" effects?
JavaScript is disabled. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding.
You are using an out of date browser. It may not display this or other websites correctly.
You should upgrade or use an
alternative browser
.
Reply to thread
Message
<blockquote data-quote="ParanoydStyle" data-source="post: 7594254" data-attributes="member: 6984451"><p>I too am torn. Let me try to untear myself. First, I'll note that 5E, which has very few <em>true</em> Save or Dies left, took the general approach to fixing Save or Dies of changing most of them into "Save or take an amount of damage which will very likely kill you". It's a solution of sorts (I think maybe it feels less bad to be told "you take 55 damage" even if you're at 15 hp than to be told "you're dead") but it's not much of a solution.</p><p></p><p>I think that the higher the party's level is and the more party members there are, the more appropriate Save or Die effects are. The fewer party members and the lower their level, the more likely Save or Die effects are to ruin a game. I think could actually make a table, if this forum supports tables. Eh, I'll make a fable (fake table) instead.</p><p></p><p>I'm concerning myself only with the impact of Save or Die effects on PCs. If a big bad or a boss fight fails a save on a save or lose or a save or die early in the fight, that is one of the rare times I will fudge it (in 3.5), although this is purely academic as my dice luck when DMing is phenomenally, frighteningly awesome and obviously boss monsters are gonna have pretty good save bonuses. Thankfully, in 5E there's Legendary Resistance, so even if true Save or Dies were still a thing (which again they MOSTLY aren't in 5E), there'd be a good solution to their impact on boss fights.</p><p></p><p>So, PCs, then. Level is only relevant in my calculations here in terms of ease of access to death reversal magic.</p><p></p><p>Total Party Levels Save or Die effects....</p><p>30> ...are completely inappropriate and disruptive to the game... </p><p>31-49 ...should probably be used sparingly...</p><p>50-60 ...add challenge and depth to both combat and adventuring... </p><p>>60 ...should really be used to keep things interesting.</p><p></p><p>Obviously, that's just my opinion, and no, there isn't any kind rigorous statistics work going on behind those numbers, just going by gut. </p><p></p><p>The last thing I'd add is that I think Save or Dies should have hard counters, such as <em>death ward</em> in 3.X, or that amulet (can't remember what it was called, also in 3.5) that kept you from getting polymorphed or petrified. PCs should totally have the option to use item slots or spell slots on making sure they don't get OHKO'd by a specific effect.</p><p></p><p>Trivial Question: do you count save or statue as a save or die?</p><p></p><p>FINAL DISCLAIMER: I do not know the 5E Monster Manual super well. There could be more save or dies there that I might not be thinking of. I was thinking primarily of the spells in the PHB when I made the statements above that 5E had <em>mostly</em> removed all <em>true</em> Save or Dies.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="ParanoydStyle, post: 7594254, member: 6984451"] I too am torn. Let me try to untear myself. First, I'll note that 5E, which has very few [I]true[/I] Save or Dies left, took the general approach to fixing Save or Dies of changing most of them into "Save or take an amount of damage which will very likely kill you". It's a solution of sorts (I think maybe it feels less bad to be told "you take 55 damage" even if you're at 15 hp than to be told "you're dead") but it's not much of a solution. I think that the higher the party's level is and the more party members there are, the more appropriate Save or Die effects are. The fewer party members and the lower their level, the more likely Save or Die effects are to ruin a game. I think could actually make a table, if this forum supports tables. Eh, I'll make a fable (fake table) instead. I'm concerning myself only with the impact of Save or Die effects on PCs. If a big bad or a boss fight fails a save on a save or lose or a save or die early in the fight, that is one of the rare times I will fudge it (in 3.5), although this is purely academic as my dice luck when DMing is phenomenally, frighteningly awesome and obviously boss monsters are gonna have pretty good save bonuses. Thankfully, in 5E there's Legendary Resistance, so even if true Save or Dies were still a thing (which again they MOSTLY aren't in 5E), there'd be a good solution to their impact on boss fights. So, PCs, then. Level is only relevant in my calculations here in terms of ease of access to death reversal magic. Total Party Levels Save or Die effects.... 30> ...are completely inappropriate and disruptive to the game... 31-49 ...should probably be used sparingly... 50-60 ...add challenge and depth to both combat and adventuring... >60 ...should really be used to keep things interesting. Obviously, that's just my opinion, and no, there isn't any kind rigorous statistics work going on behind those numbers, just going by gut. The last thing I'd add is that I think Save or Dies should have hard counters, such as [I]death ward[/I] in 3.X, or that amulet (can't remember what it was called, also in 3.5) that kept you from getting polymorphed or petrified. PCs should totally have the option to use item slots or spell slots on making sure they don't get OHKO'd by a specific effect. Trivial Question: do you count save or statue as a save or die? FINAL DISCLAIMER: I do not know the 5E Monster Manual super well. There could be more save or dies there that I might not be thinking of. I was thinking primarily of the spells in the PHB when I made the statements above that 5E had [I]mostly[/I] removed all [I]true[/I] Save or Dies. [/QUOTE]
Insert quotes…
Verification
Post reply
Community
General Tabletop Discussion
*Dungeons & Dragons
What's your opinion on "Save or Die" effects?
Top