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<blockquote data-quote="Roseweave" data-source="post: 6940231" data-attributes="member: 6806914"><p><span style="color: #000000">It's really disheartening that even after a locked thread people still want to talk about Cultural Appropriation, and by talk I mean absolutely insist it isn't real and anyone who believes in it is an idiot. I just want to be clear about this - the reason why people, especially largely white, western sorts who don't experience much in the way of appropriation hurting them, make arguments that appropriation isn't real, racial/sexist bias doesn't exist etc. is because they want to keep on doing that stuff without checking themselves or opening themselves up to the experiences of others. People are acting like they have an intellectual slant on it but it's really false. </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">At the end of the day, the difference between appropriation and exchange, as with the subject of "A man plays a woman" is <em>respect.</em> And unfortunately most of us have been raised in or spend a lot of time in environments where we're told we're the heroes of our stories and the subaltern are little more than accessories - your sassy gay black best friend, the spicy Latina girlfriend, the east asian martial artist dude. As such people aren't used to the idea of really respecting subaltern groups, but see any bone thrown as doing so since it's a step up from the baseline.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">These things aren't just "theories" and there's certainly a lot more written for the idea of Cultural Appropriation than against. You can talk to the lived experiences of groups heavily affected by appropriation - particularly Native Americans, Romani people. It hurts people - and I don't think that people not from those groups have a right to tell them that what they see and experience or feel somehow isn't real. That is, frankly, amazingly imperialist, and we need to be real that what we call "Cultural Appropriation" is really the modern iteration of Orientalism, which goes hand in hand with Colonialism.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">I'm in a unique position - I'm white, though I am Irish so until somewhat recently we were affected by such things. I was adopted by a Romani family, so I can see the harm "gypsy" stereotypes cause(even if the Roma themselves aren't always aware of them). I'm a convert to Islam, and I can see how the use of Islamic & Middle Eastern imagery and concepts can be harmful. Most of the people I talk to are non white(Despite living in Ireland, not even sure how that happened!), and a large number are activists educated on their cause. One of their biggest complaints goes thusly: Roma people will get discriminated against for being visibly Roma(wearing the long skirts+diklo), black people get discriminated against for dreadlocks etc. but when a white person puts on a Sari without any pretext they're often celebrated for it. Granted a lot of people will find it distasteful, but an actual South Asian person would increase their chances of being told "go back to India" - with a white person it won't. Somehow something that's a beloved part of someone's culture has become a safer part of someone else's. Of course, if they were going to a Diwali festival with some South Asian friends, it would be a different example. That would be being <em>invited in</em> to a cultural event. Similarly if my Roma friends dress me up as Roma, that's being invited in. Dressing up in an abaya/niqab for Hallowen? Not so much.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">The idea that "all cultures borrowed from each other throughout history" actually hides a very brutal history that white westerners want others to forget - a history of imperialism, colonialism, mass starvation and killing. This is why the concept of "invited in" is so important because generally white, western people didn't bother with that and just took what they wanted. Entire peoples practically disappeared because some westerners wanted some spices. Britain's relationship with India is a great example of this. The relationships between white majority western countries and essentially the rest of the world wasn't quite the same as throughout history because it was so starkly biased. Of course - if you go back far enough you'll find other examples of empires and the like causing a mesh of cultures, but it's been long enough since most of that Occured that it's history(though contrary to popular belief, history seldom fully goes away as an effect). Millions of people are still alive that remember the creation of Partition in India/Pakistan, for example, or France's brutal and comically evil occupation of Libya that a lot of people don't realise was a large factor in France's issues with "Muslim" immigrants. </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">People who say cultural appropriation doesn't exist honestly just don't care about things like this, or haven't spent enough time at intersections to see it. Which sounds like a hefty and hurtful accusation, but so is saying "Cultural Appropriation doesn't exist". Do you know what happens when people say stuff like this? Most of the time, instead of arguing the case, PoC especially those from heavily exoticised cultures, back off. They don't come here. They don't reveal their ethnicity. They may even feel like not being involved in the hobby. While not everyone making the argument is white, "Cultural Appropriation Doesn't Exist" serves to help mark roleplaying games as the territory of white or at least heavily westernised people. </span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">As for Orcs, Elves, etc. as analogies for human racists - it's a terrible idea to view these as <em>direct</em> racial analogues because most of these creatures from folklore and are often metaphors for other things, other aspects of human existence, other sorts of "groups"(like for pirates, bandits, corrupt rich people, whichever). Unfortunately, it's also hard to deny that the way these races are written in D&D and similar systems make them less alien, fairy tale creatures, and <em>can be</em> somewhat more analogue to real world ethnicities. It's really curious to me that people are saying that racism against real world ethnicities doesn't exist in D&D(which is untrue, in the Realms at least you have the Gurs, and it's mentioned that people do "exoticise" Zakharan and Calishites, just like in real life), because of the existence of other<em> species, </em>though the species also don't count as any sort of analogue for ethnicity. But hold on - this is like pulling yourself up form your feet! The issue of racism just somehow disappeared. This is a magicians trick. For the idea of real world racism to be obfuscated, there needs to be <em>some </em>conceptual overlap. Unless the mere presence of "alien" races opens everyone minds so much that racism stops existing, which I really really don't think is the case. It's interesting to me too that privileged groups often tell marginalised groups to be happy with "allegorical" representation(like the X-men etc.) but then deny that it happens when it becomes problematic.</span></p><p><span style="color: #000000"></span></p><p><span style="color: #000000">Saying absolutes like, <em>Drow or Orcs can never be seen a real world minority</em> or <em>Cultural Appropriation doesn't Exist </em>are very decisive statements that need an awful lot of defence given the number of examples you could imagine where these things are the case and are harmful. Obviously there is a need for nuance here and discussing to what degree these things are true, when, and how we can minimise disrespect for others. The people who make aggressive blanket statements and then act like they're being persecuted for being called out on it are standing in the way of any sort of rational discussion. I can't be in a thread where people are trying to set the absolute premise that something I have seen in action - even from my own perspective, being Trans, and seeing how people co-opt trans culture & achievements for yet another Oscar bait movie - is not real, and I'm dumb for believing it. And if I feel that way, I can only imagine how most non-white people will feel, and not just that one black guy on youtube who holds views that are convenient for people that don't much care about what most subaltern peoples have to say.</span></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Roseweave, post: 6940231, member: 6806914"] [COLOR=#000000]It's really disheartening that even after a locked thread people still want to talk about Cultural Appropriation, and by talk I mean absolutely insist it isn't real and anyone who believes in it is an idiot. I just want to be clear about this - the reason why people, especially largely white, western sorts who don't experience much in the way of appropriation hurting them, make arguments that appropriation isn't real, racial/sexist bias doesn't exist etc. is because they want to keep on doing that stuff without checking themselves or opening themselves up to the experiences of others. People are acting like they have an intellectual slant on it but it's really false. At the end of the day, the difference between appropriation and exchange, as with the subject of "A man plays a woman" is [I]respect.[/I] And unfortunately most of us have been raised in or spend a lot of time in environments where we're told we're the heroes of our stories and the subaltern are little more than accessories - your sassy gay black best friend, the spicy Latina girlfriend, the east asian martial artist dude. As such people aren't used to the idea of really respecting subaltern groups, but see any bone thrown as doing so since it's a step up from the baseline. These things aren't just "theories" and there's certainly a lot more written for the idea of Cultural Appropriation than against. You can talk to the lived experiences of groups heavily affected by appropriation - particularly Native Americans, Romani people. It hurts people - and I don't think that people not from those groups have a right to tell them that what they see and experience or feel somehow isn't real. That is, frankly, amazingly imperialist, and we need to be real that what we call "Cultural Appropriation" is really the modern iteration of Orientalism, which goes hand in hand with Colonialism. I'm in a unique position - I'm white, though I am Irish so until somewhat recently we were affected by such things. I was adopted by a Romani family, so I can see the harm "gypsy" stereotypes cause(even if the Roma themselves aren't always aware of them). I'm a convert to Islam, and I can see how the use of Islamic & Middle Eastern imagery and concepts can be harmful. Most of the people I talk to are non white(Despite living in Ireland, not even sure how that happened!), and a large number are activists educated on their cause. One of their biggest complaints goes thusly: Roma people will get discriminated against for being visibly Roma(wearing the long skirts+diklo), black people get discriminated against for dreadlocks etc. but when a white person puts on a Sari without any pretext they're often celebrated for it. Granted a lot of people will find it distasteful, but an actual South Asian person would increase their chances of being told "go back to India" - with a white person it won't. Somehow something that's a beloved part of someone's culture has become a safer part of someone else's. Of course, if they were going to a Diwali festival with some South Asian friends, it would be a different example. That would be being [I]invited in[/I] to a cultural event. Similarly if my Roma friends dress me up as Roma, that's being invited in. Dressing up in an abaya/niqab for Hallowen? Not so much. The idea that "all cultures borrowed from each other throughout history" actually hides a very brutal history that white westerners want others to forget - a history of imperialism, colonialism, mass starvation and killing. This is why the concept of "invited in" is so important because generally white, western people didn't bother with that and just took what they wanted. Entire peoples practically disappeared because some westerners wanted some spices. Britain's relationship with India is a great example of this. The relationships between white majority western countries and essentially the rest of the world wasn't quite the same as throughout history because it was so starkly biased. Of course - if you go back far enough you'll find other examples of empires and the like causing a mesh of cultures, but it's been long enough since most of that Occured that it's history(though contrary to popular belief, history seldom fully goes away as an effect). Millions of people are still alive that remember the creation of Partition in India/Pakistan, for example, or France's brutal and comically evil occupation of Libya that a lot of people don't realise was a large factor in France's issues with "Muslim" immigrants. People who say cultural appropriation doesn't exist honestly just don't care about things like this, or haven't spent enough time at intersections to see it. Which sounds like a hefty and hurtful accusation, but so is saying "Cultural Appropriation doesn't exist". Do you know what happens when people say stuff like this? Most of the time, instead of arguing the case, PoC especially those from heavily exoticised cultures, back off. They don't come here. They don't reveal their ethnicity. They may even feel like not being involved in the hobby. While not everyone making the argument is white, "Cultural Appropriation Doesn't Exist" serves to help mark roleplaying games as the territory of white or at least heavily westernised people. As for Orcs, Elves, etc. as analogies for human racists - it's a terrible idea to view these as [I]direct[/I] racial analogues because most of these creatures from folklore and are often metaphors for other things, other aspects of human existence, other sorts of "groups"(like for pirates, bandits, corrupt rich people, whichever). Unfortunately, it's also hard to deny that the way these races are written in D&D and similar systems make them less alien, fairy tale creatures, and [I]can be[/I] somewhat more analogue to real world ethnicities. It's really curious to me that people are saying that racism against real world ethnicities doesn't exist in D&D(which is untrue, in the Realms at least you have the Gurs, and it's mentioned that people do "exoticise" Zakharan and Calishites, just like in real life), because of the existence of other[I] species, [/I]though the species also don't count as any sort of analogue for ethnicity. But hold on - this is like pulling yourself up form your feet! The issue of racism just somehow disappeared. This is a magicians trick. For the idea of real world racism to be obfuscated, there needs to be [I]some [/I]conceptual overlap. Unless the mere presence of "alien" races opens everyone minds so much that racism stops existing, which I really really don't think is the case. It's interesting to me too that privileged groups often tell marginalised groups to be happy with "allegorical" representation(like the X-men etc.) but then deny that it happens when it becomes problematic. Saying absolutes like, [I]Drow or Orcs can never be seen a real world minority[/I] or [I]Cultural Appropriation doesn't Exist [/I]are very decisive statements that need an awful lot of defence given the number of examples you could imagine where these things are the case and are harmful. Obviously there is a need for nuance here and discussing to what degree these things are true, when, and how we can minimise disrespect for others. The people who make aggressive blanket statements and then act like they're being persecuted for being called out on it are standing in the way of any sort of rational discussion. I can't be in a thread where people are trying to set the absolute premise that something I have seen in action - even from my own perspective, being Trans, and seeing how people co-opt trans culture & achievements for yet another Oscar bait movie - is not real, and I'm dumb for believing it. And if I feel that way, I can only imagine how most non-white people will feel, and not just that one black guy on youtube who holds views that are convenient for people that don't much care about what most subaltern peoples have to say.[/COLOR] [/QUOTE]
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