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<blockquote data-quote="Anon Adderlan" data-source="post: 6981263" data-attributes="member: 53053"><p>Any character concept which violates the boundaries of any player at the table should be changed. Full stop. Our experiences are irrelevant to your discomfort or concerns.</p><p></p><p>That said, in my experience men playing women and visa versa has never been a problem, but I've yet to encounter anyone playing a sexual abuse survivor who hates all men, so can't help you there. I have however encountered plenty of actual sexual abuse survivors, and while they all deal with it differently, most of the time some level of (hyper/hypo)sexualization is a part of it, which I'm almost certain would be difficult to express without coming off as creepy. Think <a href="http://copper.wikia.com/wiki/Annie_Reilly" target="_blank">Annie Reilly from Copper</a>.</p><p></p><p>Regardless there'll always be some level of stereotyping to account for in an RPG, and people naturally tend to overemphasize the biggest differences from themselves when playing a character.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>For some this would be offensive regardless the source. I mean Ru Paul can't even get away with it anymore. And how would you know if a person playing such a character was a cis het guy anyway?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I was in special-ed, consistently bullied, and called 'retard' up until College. Guess I've got the same legitimacy to take back that word as you do yours.</p><p></p><p>Wonder how well that'll work out.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>#Drag seeks to violate cultural norms while #Trans seek to become them. They're diametrically opposed despite the superficial similaritiy. So #Drag is 'offensive' by its very nature.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So you have <s>black friends</s> lesbian acquaintances. Guess that means you're qualified to speak on their behalf.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>I guess that means you're qualified to speak for all those groups too, especially the #Roma who are apparently too dumb to see when certain representations are harmful without their great Irish savior.</p><p></p><p>Here's a thought: Perhaps it's not that they don't see them, but that they simply don't <em>agree</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And this entitlement even extends to fictional minorities, lol.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Then you should feel free to share your concerns and ask that player not to do it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>No it doesn't. #Monsterhearts encourages it, D&D 5e just suggests that if you wanted to play such a character there's nothing stopping you.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>At least you got this right, and why only the 'dominant' culture can engage in it. There's even parallels when it comes to shaming transwomen for wearing dresses while celebrating cis het guys for doing so. Thing is the dominant culture isn't always white, and the problem isn't white people wearing bindis and dreads, but minorities being punished for it. So the solution isn't to start persecuting white people, but to <em>stop persecuting minorities</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>If you're involved in imperialism, colonialism, mass starvation, or genocide, then by definition you're trying to wipe out 'inferior' cultures, not borrow from them. German Nazi's did not adopt Jewish culture. White colonials did not adopt Native American culture. British imperialists did not adopt Indian culture. Spanish Conquistadors did not adopt Aztec culture.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand Modern America and The English Language adopt culture almost indiscriminately and have been insanely successful because of it.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Are you a PoC? No? Then let them speak for themselves and don't dismiss them when they do...</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>...like here. And you did so by dismissing him <em>as a person</em> based solely on his race and how 'convenient' he was for other people (and wasn't for you). Now if he came to this site and read what you wrote about him do you think he'd feel welcomed?</p><p></p><p>I on the other hand like to raise minority voices up, so here's what <a href="https://youtu.be/_q0OcWhIDF0" target="_blank">Some Black Guy</a>, <a href="https://youtu.be/Y-Cf-Qv_QLo" target="_blank">nappy headed black girl</a>, <a href="https://youtu.be/9V3KOnxVO0k" target="_blank">SomethingSomething Love</a>, <a href="https://youtu.be/hrAOWURvU98" target="_blank">Aba & Preach</a>, <a href="https://youtu.be/8BqxmEJrZWU?t=4m58s" target="_blank">Ross Mckelvy</a> and a couple of <a href="https://youtu.be/TzVoJGhvC5o" target="_blank">Brilliant Idiots</a> have to say about dreads and cultural appropriation.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>So who determines what is respectful? Because obviously it isn't 'that one black guy'.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You don't need to call for it because it's being 'outlawed' in exactly the same manner. Just ask a teacher, cop, actor, artist, or anyone else SJWs have sought to get <em>fired</em> or made <em>unemployable</em> for what they said.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>There's honestly very little I find worse in the world than hypocrites who use their 'oppressed' status to judge and speak for others, except for maybe those who also disengage when their conclusions and legitimacy are challenged.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Fair enough, but are you also saying you can claim someone <em>else's</em> trauma as your own vicariously? Because if true then boy howdy do I have a lot of baggage.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>But how often does that honestly translate to social ability <em>outside</em> the game? Because I've seen people with <em>good</em> social skills get <em>worse</em> after playing an RPG more often than the contrary.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Chainmail didn't. D&D didn't. AD&D limited female characters to 18/50 STR max. 3rd Ed didn't. 4th Ed didn't. 5th Ed certainly doesn't.</p><p></p><p>Perhaps you meant <em>one</em>.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>When conclusions are challenged, disengage! And whatever you do, don't try and find out if the problem is simply different definitions for 'cultural appropriation'.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This is exactly the kind of misunderstanding you get when dealing with someone who priortizes feelings over facts, which may be no less legitimate, but the difference is still a leading cause of conflict on the internet. Me? I'm a facts guy. Because taking the internet too seriously is a leading cause of conflict in the real world.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>That's because the point is to make an example out of someone, not correct their behavior. It's an ideology of fear and intimidation, where nothing short of lifetime ostracization, unemployment, and public shaming is enough.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Indeed, I'd love to see someone make claims about what makes someone an authentic PoC or woman without it being intensely marginalizing.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>The minute you treat an RPG session as therapy is the minute you make the GM <em>accountable</em> for being a therapist, your fellow players patients there for the same reasons you are, and any character choices as evidence of 'issues'.</p><p></p><p>On the other hand, being able to call myself a therapist would lend an air of legitimacy to my statements <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f61b.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":P" title="Stick out tongue :P" data-smilie="7"data-shortname=":P" /></p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And how many of them ended up coming out as transwomen? Because I've seen this happen before, and the 'quality' of roleplay was never a significant indicator.</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>Contrary to popular belief a safe space is not a padded cell full of hypoallergenic kittens, only an environment where you are free from the demands and judgements of others.</p><p></p><p>#SpotTheIrony</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>How would you know?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>You sure use the word 'genuine' alot. Makes me think you don't actually have a coherent argument backing your conclusions. Does this mean a transwoman is not a 'genuine' woman?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>This comes dangerously close to demanding someone justify their feelings and experience based on someone else's, or worse dismissing them entirely. So what exactly do you consider 'inappropriate' reactions?</p><p></p><p></p><p></p><p>And finally Gentlegamer, aptly demonstrating why this is still even an issue.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Anon Adderlan, post: 6981263, member: 53053"] Any character concept which violates the boundaries of any player at the table should be changed. Full stop. Our experiences are irrelevant to your discomfort or concerns. That said, in my experience men playing women and visa versa has never been a problem, but I've yet to encounter anyone playing a sexual abuse survivor who hates all men, so can't help you there. I have however encountered plenty of actual sexual abuse survivors, and while they all deal with it differently, most of the time some level of (hyper/hypo)sexualization is a part of it, which I'm almost certain would be difficult to express without coming off as creepy. Think [URL="http://copper.wikia.com/wiki/Annie_Reilly"]Annie Reilly from Copper[/URL]. Regardless there'll always be some level of stereotyping to account for in an RPG, and people naturally tend to overemphasize the biggest differences from themselves when playing a character. For some this would be offensive regardless the source. I mean Ru Paul can't even get away with it anymore. And how would you know if a person playing such a character was a cis het guy anyway? I was in special-ed, consistently bullied, and called 'retard' up until College. Guess I've got the same legitimacy to take back that word as you do yours. Wonder how well that'll work out. #Drag seeks to violate cultural norms while #Trans seek to become them. They're diametrically opposed despite the superficial similaritiy. So #Drag is 'offensive' by its very nature. So you have [S]black friends[/S] lesbian acquaintances. Guess that means you're qualified to speak on their behalf. I guess that means you're qualified to speak for all those groups too, especially the #Roma who are apparently too dumb to see when certain representations are harmful without their great Irish savior. Here's a thought: Perhaps it's not that they don't see them, but that they simply don't [I]agree[/I]. And this entitlement even extends to fictional minorities, lol. Then you should feel free to share your concerns and ask that player not to do it. No it doesn't. #Monsterhearts encourages it, D&D 5e just suggests that if you wanted to play such a character there's nothing stopping you. At least you got this right, and why only the 'dominant' culture can engage in it. There's even parallels when it comes to shaming transwomen for wearing dresses while celebrating cis het guys for doing so. Thing is the dominant culture isn't always white, and the problem isn't white people wearing bindis and dreads, but minorities being punished for it. So the solution isn't to start persecuting white people, but to [I]stop persecuting minorities[/I]. If you're involved in imperialism, colonialism, mass starvation, or genocide, then by definition you're trying to wipe out 'inferior' cultures, not borrow from them. German Nazi's did not adopt Jewish culture. White colonials did not adopt Native American culture. British imperialists did not adopt Indian culture. Spanish Conquistadors did not adopt Aztec culture. On the other hand Modern America and The English Language adopt culture almost indiscriminately and have been insanely successful because of it. Are you a PoC? No? Then let them speak for themselves and don't dismiss them when they do... ...like here. And you did so by dismissing him [I]as a person[/I] based solely on his race and how 'convenient' he was for other people (and wasn't for you). Now if he came to this site and read what you wrote about him do you think he'd feel welcomed? I on the other hand like to raise minority voices up, so here's what [URL="https://youtu.be/_q0OcWhIDF0"]Some Black Guy[/URL], [URL="https://youtu.be/Y-Cf-Qv_QLo"]nappy headed black girl[/URL], [URL="https://youtu.be/9V3KOnxVO0k"]SomethingSomething Love[/URL], [URL="https://youtu.be/hrAOWURvU98"]Aba & Preach[/URL], [URL="https://youtu.be/8BqxmEJrZWU?t=4m58s"]Ross Mckelvy[/URL] and a couple of [URL="https://youtu.be/TzVoJGhvC5o"]Brilliant Idiots[/URL] have to say about dreads and cultural appropriation. So who determines what is respectful? Because obviously it isn't 'that one black guy'. You don't need to call for it because it's being 'outlawed' in exactly the same manner. Just ask a teacher, cop, actor, artist, or anyone else SJWs have sought to get [I]fired[/I] or made [I]unemployable[/I] for what they said. There's honestly very little I find worse in the world than hypocrites who use their 'oppressed' status to judge and speak for others, except for maybe those who also disengage when their conclusions and legitimacy are challenged. Fair enough, but are you also saying you can claim someone [I]else's[/I] trauma as your own vicariously? Because if true then boy howdy do I have a lot of baggage. But how often does that honestly translate to social ability [I]outside[/I] the game? Because I've seen people with [I]good[/I] social skills get [I]worse[/I] after playing an RPG more often than the contrary. Chainmail didn't. D&D didn't. AD&D limited female characters to 18/50 STR max. 3rd Ed didn't. 4th Ed didn't. 5th Ed certainly doesn't. Perhaps you meant [I]one[/I]. When conclusions are challenged, disengage! And whatever you do, don't try and find out if the problem is simply different definitions for 'cultural appropriation'. This is exactly the kind of misunderstanding you get when dealing with someone who priortizes feelings over facts, which may be no less legitimate, but the difference is still a leading cause of conflict on the internet. Me? I'm a facts guy. Because taking the internet too seriously is a leading cause of conflict in the real world. That's because the point is to make an example out of someone, not correct their behavior. It's an ideology of fear and intimidation, where nothing short of lifetime ostracization, unemployment, and public shaming is enough. Indeed, I'd love to see someone make claims about what makes someone an authentic PoC or woman without it being intensely marginalizing. The minute you treat an RPG session as therapy is the minute you make the GM [I]accountable[/I] for being a therapist, your fellow players patients there for the same reasons you are, and any character choices as evidence of 'issues'. On the other hand, being able to call myself a therapist would lend an air of legitimacy to my statements :P And how many of them ended up coming out as transwomen? Because I've seen this happen before, and the 'quality' of roleplay was never a significant indicator. Contrary to popular belief a safe space is not a padded cell full of hypoallergenic kittens, only an environment where you are free from the demands and judgements of others. #SpotTheIrony How would you know? You sure use the word 'genuine' alot. Makes me think you don't actually have a coherent argument backing your conclusions. Does this mean a transwoman is not a 'genuine' woman? This comes dangerously close to demanding someone justify their feelings and experience based on someone else's, or worse dismissing them entirely. So what exactly do you consider 'inappropriate' reactions? And finally Gentlegamer, aptly demonstrating why this is still even an issue. [/QUOTE]
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