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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Vigilance" data-source="post: 3233085" data-attributes="member: 4275">I agree that the two systems support different play styles to some degree (I think it's a fairly small degree) but what I'm mostly referring to are differences in player expectation.For instance, I've noticed that players who began playing with 3e expect EVERYTHING to come from the rules. Any solution to a problem should come from a skill, a feat, a spell, a class ability, etc.Older edition players didn't mind a module saying "you have a 1 in 6 chance of falling" and expected that they would be allowed to do something crazy and try to get around that, like making a rigging from rope and block and tackle. Or like in Tomb of Horrors where there are just chances to DIE, rather arbitrarily. If you stick your trusty 10' pole into the Sphere of Annihilation, you have half a pole. If you stick your head in, you're GONE. I ran that module at my FLGS a few years back for young 3e players and they literally gasped when that happened and started demanding saves. I almost thought I was going to have a riot on my hands... they were especially mad that their OUTRAGE over the encounter provoked nothing but laughter from me. So sure, the games are a little different, mostly because 3e requires the GM to do less ad-libbing to fill in the gaps.But imo the MUCH bigger difference is that players no longer feel the GM *should* be Oz behind the curtain, leaving that to the game designers. Even Monte has bemoaned this cultural shift in 3e a time or two. I know the rules really well, but on the rare instance I encounter something I don't know the rule for, my impulse is to just say "this happens". I've had younger players reach for a book, look up stunned when I just rule and move on, and a rare few have even said "no, let's look for a rule".One player said "what if we find a rule for it and it this is wrong" (this being my solution) and I said "then it won't work that way next time". They'd rather stop the entire game than go off the edge into that scarrrrrrrrrry unmarked waters of making <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /><img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" /> up as you go. I'm not saying this "new player" is good or bad. Some young players I've met are some of the best players I've ever met and a few have been really annoying. But I'm certainly not the only one to notice a decided shift in player expectations among younger players, and noting something has changed is value-neutral. So I think that's the difference in how many older modules are regarded. Designers used to not consider whether removing all teleportation, divination spells and (eventually equipment) was "fair" in Isle of the Ape. It just WAS, and you found a way to deal with it (other than complain to the GM).Chuck</blockquote>

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