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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ashrym" data-source="post: 9470913" data-attributes="member: 6750235">Heavy armor would be expensive in terms of STR.  15 STR costs more than 14 DEX.  Light armor or no armor costs even more in terms of DEX for the AC.That doesn't mean much for a character who already focuses on STR or DEX, but for those who don't medium armor is on the low side of stat investment.Cleric seems like a good example here.  They have medium armor training and a class feature that gives them a choice for heavy armor training.  If they're going to wear ring mail anyway they might as well stick with medium armor and breastplate or half plate.  Otherwise they're looking at investing in STR for movement rates and possibly weight carried.With the cleric example, the breastplate would have the same AC as the ringmail with no investment in either ability score.  If the cleric is going to invest in an ability score like STR they can also invest in an ability score like DEX.A bard or ranger, OTOH, is likely to invest in DEX regardless for some AC and possibly weapon attacks.  If a ranger or valor bard plans on 20 DEX they'll eventually outgrow the medium armor, but it's effectively better in the meantime for much of the game.  It also affords focusing on CHA or WIS first as well.I would claim Reliable Talent makes rogues the most skill oriented class in a capped DC system because of the low roll protection, however.  It's not about the big numbers; it's about how often the roll succeeds on the 15 and 20 DC checks.Rogues can very good as social skills because of it.  ;-)Thieves got the list of thieving skills.  All rangers got HS and MS.  All bards got CW, DN, PP.  It was like they both had some rogue-like traits but were split among the two classes compared to thieves.Those abilities for the ranger had low percent chance of success, but by 11th level and up they were solid skills.Spell casting, OTOH, was terrible for rangers.  No spells until 8th level that were then cast as a 1st level caster, priest spells limited to the animal and plant domains on a chart that stopped at 3rd level spells, and a maximum 9th caster level at 16th level ranger.This was the spell list from which to select for rangers:<ul> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">1st level:  Animal Friendship, Invisibility to Animals, Locate Animals or Plants; Entange, Pass Without Trace, Shillelagh</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">2nd level:  Charm Person or Mammal, Messenger, Snake Charm, Speak with Animals; Barkskin, Goodberry, Trip, Warp Wood</li> <li data-xf-list-type="ul">3rd level:  Hold Animal, Summon Insects; Plant Growth, Snare, Spike Growth, Tree</li> </ul>It wasn't much of a list.  And...They were two-weapon fighters often in light armor who could track, had some animal empathy, terrible spell casting, eventually got sneaky, and had a hated enemy.It wasn't my idea of a fun class in that edition.  <img class="smilie smilie--emoji" alt="🙃" src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f643.png" title="Upside-down face    :upside_down:" data-shortname=":upside_down:" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" /></blockquote>

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