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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 7235134" data-attributes="member: 6787503">But that's an "at-the-table" circumstance. In my OP, I was asking more about what in-game circumstances are conducive to hiding, so yes, let's go to "the rock in the middle of the field." Let's assume this rock is a medium-sized object that creates no ambiguity as to the location of the medium or small-sized creature hiding behind it.I think that's a very poor definition of hidden. I've seen it circulated on these boards as such, but that doesn't seem to be the intent behind the inclusion of that particular gloss in the text, at least not to me. To me, "unseen and unheard" was written under the heading, Unseen Attackers and Targets, to further differentiate the hidden state -- already described as a state in which your location must be guessed, and therefore remains unknown at the point of guessing -- from the otherwise prevailing condition in which an unseen attacker or target's location is known because it can be heard. Furthermore, "unseen and unheard" appears in a sentence that assumes your location's unknown when you're hidden and only becomes known when your attack hits or misses. A better gloss for hidden would be "unnoticed and undetected" because, for one thing, there are more senses than just sight and hearing by which a creature can be perceived, and for another, it calls attention to the fact that once noticed or detected, it's very difficult to become unnoticed and undetected. More than likely, your location will continue to be tracked until some intervening circumstance calls the certainty of your location into question. Of course, different DMs will require different circumstances to create enough ambiguity (which is the point of this thread), but I think avoiding or evading detection should be the goal of any attempt to hide.Exactly! You're also not giving away your location when your attack hits or misses, because it hasn't been kept secret before that! So, were you really ever hidden?That's the default, but at least two exceptions are mentioned in the rule-book. An unconscious creature is unaware of its surroundings, and a creature using its awareness for a task besides keeping watch for danger doesn't notice hidden threats with its passive score. This is because the default assumes creatures are alert and keeping watch, as if in combat, at all times. That's what the passive score represents.While I don't necessarily agree with your reasoning, I think the result would be pretty much the same in my game. The part you seem to be leaving out, though, is what the situation is before the rock is thrown. If you aren't hidden to begin with, but instead have been noticed by the creature from which you are attempting to hide, then throwing a rock won't help you become hidden. It can only help you stay hidden by creating a distraction as you come out of hiding.The rule-book doesn't say your passive score doesn't apply to a group check if you're engaged in an activity other than keeping watch. It says it doesn't contribute at all to the group's chance of noticing hidden threats, which is determined not by a group check, but by using each character's passive score to determine whether that character notices a hidden threat.</blockquote>

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