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<blockquote data-quote="Gorgon Zee" data-source="post: 9585877" data-attributes="member: 75787">I can't recall if you played LFR or ran a lot of 4E, Celebrim. For a few years there it seemed like every climax combat was a &quot;combat with challenge&quot; and the writers got pretty good at making sure that &quot;kill everything and then do the skill challenge&quot; was not the best option for most groups. 4E is particularly suitable for this style of combat as it has a lot of mechanical effects that a scenario designer can use to penalize the brute force approach. Some mechanics I recall were:<ul>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Many times you had to push X buttons / make skill checks on X items to make the combat winnable (make enemy defenses reasonable, stop minion canons, take away damaging terrain / effects). I ended up prioritizing feats that added movement to get around the map fast and do the things (Drow thief w/ free action teleport into cloud of darkness).</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Timed encounters where the goal is survival and killing things was not actually that helpful. Variations included being swept along a river (I recall one regular one and another lava river) where you just want to last till the end and a very memorable one where we were falling through layers of fragile something-or-other and the goal was to fall fast enough not to be attacked much, but not so fast as to go splat.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Freeing people to make the fight easier or even achievable. Don't do this with the players as it is SO ANNOYING to keep being stuck in traps and unable to do anything until you persuade your optimized striker not to do his optimized striking, but instead spend his action pressing the open button.</li>
<li data-xf-list-type="ul">Various escort quests.</li>
</ul>However, to your point, pretty much the first question we always asked each other was &quot;do we bother with the skill challenge&quot;? However, in the mid-to late LFR era, it felt like the right answer was usually to engage with it.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Gorgon Zee, post: 9585877, member: 75787"] I can't recall if you played LFR or ran a lot of 4E, [I]Celebrim[/I]. For a few years there it seemed like every climax combat was a "combat with challenge" and the writers got pretty good at making sure that "kill everything and then do the skill challenge" was not the best option for most groups. 4E is particularly suitable for this style of combat as it has a lot of mechanical effects that a scenario designer can use to penalize the brute force approach. Some mechanics I recall were: [LIST] [*]Many times you had to push X buttons / make skill checks on X items to make the combat winnable (make enemy defenses reasonable, stop minion canons, take away damaging terrain / effects). I ended up prioritizing feats that added movement to get around the map fast and do the things (Drow thief w/ free action teleport into cloud of darkness). [*]Timed encounters where the goal is survival and killing things was not actually that helpful. Variations included being swept along a river (I recall one regular one and another lava river) where you just want to last till the end and a very memorable one where we were falling through layers of fragile something-or-other and the goal was to fall fast enough not to be attacked much, but not so fast as to go splat. [*]Freeing people to make the fight easier or even achievable. Don't do this with the players as it is SO ANNOYING to keep being stuck in traps and unable to do anything until you persuade your optimized striker not to do his optimized striking, but instead spend his action pressing the open button. [*]Various escort quests. [/LIST] However, to your point, pretty much the first question we always asked each other was "do we bother with the skill challenge"? However, in the mid-to late LFR era, it felt like the right answer was usually to engage with it. [/QUOTE]

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