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When did D&D gods first rely on their worshipers?
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<blockquote data-quote="EzekielRaiden" data-source="post: 8271036" data-attributes="member: 6790260"><p>"Dream" can mean "the vivid experience one has while sleeping," but it can also mean "a desire or aspiration sincerely held." Consider Dr. King's I Have A Dream speech; that speech makes no sense if we interpret it as, "I have a nightly hallucinatory experience that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood." It only makes sense if we understand "dream" to mean a hope, aspiration, or goal.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Bit <em>grim</em>, don't you think? Hope and aspiration just mean the belief that something beneficial can happen, if you do the work to make it happen. And even if you do think hope is a deception (why do you even do things like play role-playing games, if so???), everyone has goals.</p><p></p><p></p><p>Ao is pretty clearly ascribed a rather deist nature: he creates things and ensures that things adhere to some nebulous existence standard, but otherwise is entirely independent of the process. A facilitator who doesn't really get involved other than to fix "problems" (like the gods behaving badly) and then disengage again. If deities could get leverage over him, you can be sure they would've tried that during the Time of Troubles.</p><p></p><p></p><p>I prefer the 4th edition take: gods are effectively living concepts. Bahamut is, in some sense, literally a living entity "made" of Hope, Protection, and Justice. These things don't so much "get power from worshippers," but rather just <em>are</em> powerful because they are things that matter in the world. This gives a reciprocal relationship: if you aid Bahamut, you are making a world that is more just, more peaceful, and more benevolent; and likewise, if you take actions that make the world a better, kinder, more just place, Bahamut's influence and power grow. This means belief in a deity is more than just "oh Robert Downey Jr., I'm your biggest fan!" It means that belief in a deity is a commitment to bringing about a particular way of existing or nature of the world. Ironically, this could mean that there is probably a 4e deity (or at least the potential for one) of <em>atheism</em>, a deity whose concept is noninterference, acceptance of the way things already are, and neutrality! I don't think any of the standard 4e pantheon quite fits, though. Melora comes close but is a bit too pro-nature.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="EzekielRaiden, post: 8271036, member: 6790260"] "Dream" can mean "the vivid experience one has while sleeping," but it can also mean "a desire or aspiration sincerely held." Consider Dr. King's I Have A Dream speech; that speech makes no sense if we interpret it as, "I have a nightly hallucinatory experience that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and the sons of former slave owners will be able to sit down together at the table of brotherhood." It only makes sense if we understand "dream" to mean a hope, aspiration, or goal. Bit [I]grim[/I], don't you think? Hope and aspiration just mean the belief that something beneficial can happen, if you do the work to make it happen. And even if you do think hope is a deception (why do you even do things like play role-playing games, if so???), everyone has goals. Ao is pretty clearly ascribed a rather deist nature: he creates things and ensures that things adhere to some nebulous existence standard, but otherwise is entirely independent of the process. A facilitator who doesn't really get involved other than to fix "problems" (like the gods behaving badly) and then disengage again. If deities could get leverage over him, you can be sure they would've tried that during the Time of Troubles. I prefer the 4th edition take: gods are effectively living concepts. Bahamut is, in some sense, literally a living entity "made" of Hope, Protection, and Justice. These things don't so much "get power from worshippers," but rather just [I]are[/I] powerful because they are things that matter in the world. This gives a reciprocal relationship: if you aid Bahamut, you are making a world that is more just, more peaceful, and more benevolent; and likewise, if you take actions that make the world a better, kinder, more just place, Bahamut's influence and power grow. This means belief in a deity is more than just "oh Robert Downey Jr., I'm your biggest fan!" It means that belief in a deity is a commitment to bringing about a particular way of existing or nature of the world. Ironically, this could mean that there is probably a 4e deity (or at least the potential for one) of [I]atheism[/I], a deity whose concept is noninterference, acceptance of the way things already are, and neutrality! I don't think any of the standard 4e pantheon quite fits, though. Melora comes close but is a bit too pro-nature. [/QUOTE]
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