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<blockquote data-quote="Andor" data-source="post: 4520373" data-attributes="member: 1879">I think it's worse than that. From editing errors, bad examples, and unclear verbiage I think it's very evident that 4e was in no way a finished product by the time the 'send to printer' deadline rolled around. I suspect if you could corner the design team in a bar they would admit that 4e, as was printed, wasn't even what they wanted. What makes me sad is that WotC, the 800lb gorilla of the RPG world, couldn't do the right thing and delay release until they actually had a product they were proud of.That said a lot of people seem happy with what we did get. I'm sad to say I'm not one of them. I'd love to love 4e, but I can't. It seems like an overly inbred game. I can see where design influences drew on elements of crpgs, tactical crpgs, board games, minis, and ccgs, and there is nothing wrong with that. However all of those things drew on D&amp;D in the first place and the design became so insular, so reiterative that it feels like it has no roots outside of games as games. When 3e was designed they had a list of sacred cows to make sure it remained D&amp;D. 4e not only ignored the sacred cows of D&amp;D they forgot that at it's heart an RPG, any RPG,&nbsp; (unlike many of the other game formats that informed 4e design) is a tool that portrays the actions and mechanics of a world so that we can sit down with dice and&nbsp; cheetos and coke and tell stories of adventures in that world. When they lost contact with that as their touchstone I'm afraid they lost me as their target market. <img src="http://www.enworld.org/forum/images/smilies/cry.png"&nbsp; class="smilie" loading="lazy" alt=":.-(" title="Cry&nbsp; &nbsp; :.-(" data-shortname=":.-(" /></blockquote>

[QUOTE="Andor, post: 4520373, member: 1879"] I think it's worse than that. From editing errors, bad examples, and unclear verbiage I think it's very evident that 4e was in no way a finished product by the time the 'send to printer' deadline rolled around. I suspect if you could corner the design team in a bar they would admit that 4e, as was printed, wasn't even what [i]they[/i] wanted. What makes me sad is that WotC, the 800lb gorilla of the RPG world, couldn't do the right thing and delay release until they actually had a product they were proud of. That said a lot of people seem happy with what we did get. I'm sad to say I'm not one of them. I'd love to love 4e, but I can't. It seems like an overly inbred game. I can see where design influences drew on elements of crpgs, tactical crpgs, board games, minis, and ccgs, and there is nothing wrong with that. However all of those things drew on D&D in the first place and the design became so insular, so reiterative that it feels like it has no roots outside of games as games. When 3e was designed they had a list of sacred cows to make sure it remained D&D. 4e not only ignored the sacred cows of D&D they forgot that at it's heart an RPG, any RPG, (unlike many of the other game formats that informed 4e design) is a tool that portrays the actions and mechanics of a world so that we can sit down with dice and cheetos and coke and tell stories of adventures in that world. When they lost contact with that as their touchstone I'm afraid they lost me as their target market. :.-( [/QUOTE]

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