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<blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4522763" data-attributes="member: 2067">I can really see this.The &quot;roles&quot; in earlier editions weren't combat roles -- they were dungeon exploration roles. Some guy was the combat role (the Fighter), but combat being only part of what you do in the dungeon, there were other roles. There was the &quot;scout&quot; role (the mobility and trap-handling-ness of the thief/rogue), there was the &quot;recovery&quot; role (the cleric's ability to restore hp), and there was the &quot;toolbox&quot; role (the wizard's ability to pull out just the right spell for the job!).These roles are not quite as refined as they were in other editions (partially because of a smaller skill set, or a universalizing of &quot;recovery&quot; or &quot;toolbox&quot; with healing surges and rituals).4e is a combat game. The abilities and the descriptions and the point of the game is combat. Combat was, before, part of somethng else you did -- that something else was dungeon exploration.Now, that's not to say that 4e went the wrong way. Certainly making every class able to contribute to all aspects of dungeon exploration in different ways would be a pretty admirable goal. You don't get complaints of &quot;coardboard wizards,&quot; or of &quot;fighters who can't do anything but swing swords.&quot;But 4e didn't pursue that goal. they wanted every class to contribute to combat in different ways. In narrowing the focus like that, they've lost sight of many of the reasons that people played D&amp;D -- not to fight goblins, but to plumb the lair and uncover their mystery. This involved combat, sure, but it also involved avoiding deadly traps (&quot;gotcha monsters!&quot;), and communicating with friendly slaves (&quot;what's the use of Charisma, anyway?!&quot;), and figuring out how to escape from the tomb you've been sealed in (&quot;I'm a wizard, so I can walk through walls!&quot;), and, ultimately, beating up the goblins (&quot;I'm a fighter! I put pointy things into squishy things!&quot;). This is, I think, for me, part of why 4e doesn't seem as &quot;rich&quot; as previous editions. Like it's a step back and down, away from possibility toward selling minis and internet toys, and designing a system that can handle minis and internet toys better than previous editions.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="I'm A Banana, post: 4522763, member: 2067"] I can really see this. The "roles" in earlier editions weren't combat roles -- they were dungeon exploration roles. Some guy was the combat role (the Fighter), but combat being only part of what you do in the dungeon, there were other roles. There was the "scout" role (the mobility and trap-handling-ness of the thief/rogue), there was the "recovery" role (the cleric's ability to restore hp), and there was the "toolbox" role (the wizard's ability to pull out just the right spell for the job!). These roles are not quite as refined as they were in other editions (partially because of a smaller skill set, or a universalizing of "recovery" or "toolbox" with healing surges and rituals). 4e is a combat game. The abilities and the descriptions and the [I]point[/I] of the game is combat. Combat was, before, part of somethng else you did -- that something else was dungeon exploration. Now, that's not to say that 4e went the wrong way. Certainly making [I]every[/I] class able to contribute to all aspects of dungeon exploration in different ways would be a pretty admirable goal. You don't get complaints of "coardboard wizards," or of "fighters who can't do anything but swing swords." But 4e didn't pursue that goal. they wanted every class to contribute to [I]combat[/I] in different ways. In narrowing the focus like that, they've lost sight of many of the reasons that people played D&D -- not to fight goblins, but to plumb the lair and uncover their mystery. This involved combat, sure, but it also involved avoiding deadly traps ("gotcha monsters!"), and communicating with friendly slaves ("what's the use of Charisma, anyway?!"), and figuring out how to escape from the tomb you've been sealed in ("I'm a wizard, so I can walk through walls!"), and, ultimately, beating up the goblins ("I'm a fighter! I put pointy things into squishy things!"). This is, I think, for me, part of why 4e doesn't seem as "rich" as previous editions. Like it's a step back and down, away from possibility toward selling minis and internet toys, and designing a system that can handle minis and internet toys better than previous editions. [/QUOTE]

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