Reply to thread

Message: <blockquote data-quote="Herremann the Wise" data-source="post: 4525223" data-attributes="member: 11300">Well said! A question though in regards to this thread.What is fantasy to you and does 4E embody it?I think a chunk of people (I'll include myself in this group) got into fantasy rpgs through a variety of mediums way back when including D&D. Firstly there are the books of which Lord of the Rings most likely stands at the front, although obviously there are a stack of others. For me you can include the Fighting Fantasy Game books (City of Thieves and Deathtrap Dungeon being standouts, Iain McCaig's illustrations too), Magician by Raymond E. Feist, but then some more recent and older expanded influences (Martin, Leiber, Howard, Erikson, Williams etc.). You can then include a whole heap of images and visuals - the AD&D Monster Manual II cover is a big one for me here, but there's a whole stack of others.Previous editions of D&D have been able to be shoe-horned to fit this reasonably easily. Magical Items have been perhaps trivialised moreso than I like but that was easy enough to fix. 4E however presents a few basic issues for me in terms of fitting in with my idea of fantasy. Most importantly, where my suspension of disbelief sat has been forced to move. A lot of the simulationist elements of the game have been replaced, moved or just simply gotten rid of. I can hear Mike Mearls voice saying something like: "Some things that were in the game just weren't fun, so we got rid of them. Replaced them with things that we thought were fun." His interview with the Theory from the Closet guy was very interesting... and I suppose it did make me feel in a strange way that the designers were leaving my fantasy world behind for something different.In terms of marketing the game, you could almost see the guys around a table looking at things from a GNS perspective and thinking: well every one likes games, games are cool so we'll definitely include that. Narrative is like story stuff, and that's kind of cool too. Everyone likes stories. Ah... guys... what about simulationism though? What do you guys think? [The table goes quiet for a minute before someone has a thought] You mean like the dudes who wear viking helmets to games, talk in elvish (Quenya or something) and dress up in armor and beat each other up with swords on weekends. Hmmm... way uncool... dorks even. Perhaps thats what D&D needs to get away from? And so that meeting went...Unfortunately while I'm really enjoying the game that 4E is with my group, there is definitely a disconnect there with the fantasy I enjoy and the 4E rules as written - all hinged where my suspension of disbelief was sitting, and where it has been forced to move to. The logic behind the world that the game presents has scattered; been moved at the expense of cleaning up mechanics. I guess that for people in that "chunk" that I mentioned before, this is something that you can either accept and move on with (like I suppose I have) or it becomes something that you cannot accept. Something that I suppose means that your D&D journey has ended. And that's a sad thing people.Some have mentioned that the 3E to 4E change is the same as the 2E to 3E change, it is just that people are forgetting the acrimony of the time, the pervasiveness of the internet now compared to then and all that.I disagree.The change from 3E to 4E mechanically speaking is in some ways much less than the mechanical changes from 2E to 3E. However, the ethos behind the changes is dramatically different. Is it just as simple as saying that 4E has left a lot of the simulationist baggage behind (and a chunk of people at the same time)? Or is it bigger than that? I have a bad feeling that it might be.Best RegardsHerremann the Wise</blockquote>

Verification