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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 5533575" data-attributes="member: 22779">If I spent lots of time on the Paizo boards, I would think that 4e is the worst game ever written, right up there with FATAL and that WOTC employees regularly serve small furry animals live with their lunch.&nbsp; Never mind that WOTC has done more gamer outreach in the past couple of years than anyone's done in the past couple of decades with things like the D&amp;D Encounters and Gamma World, which apparently gets completely overlooked when people on chat boards talk about &quot;listening to the people&quot;.Really?&nbsp; This is well known?&nbsp; Or is it just commonly assumed without any actual facts backing it up.&nbsp; I thought it was sales of PHB's that were the majority of D&amp;D sales.&nbsp; Those aren't hardcore fans buying typically.&nbsp; Those are the casual players who only buy one or two books ever and probably outnumber the hardcore players a hundred to one.Whereas in the groups I've typically played with, generally everyone had at least the PHB (of whatever edition) as well as a couple of other books.Whose anecdote wins?But your numbers here are completely fabricated based on your own experiences and not based on anything resembling a fact.&nbsp; You have no idea how many groups play with one player with a large library or if groups spread out the costs.&nbsp; For example, every group I've ever played with has included multiple DM's.&nbsp; Every single one.&nbsp; Therefore, just about every group has had multiple copies of a number of books.&nbsp; Might I ask how many times you've changed groups?A blip on the radar?&nbsp; I'm sure there are rather a large number of d20 publishers that don't think 3e to 3.5 was a blip on the radar.&nbsp; For most publishers, that was the death knell of their publishing in D&amp;D.&nbsp; 3 years after publishing 2e, according to some claims by people here, D&amp;D had lost almost HALF of its player base.&nbsp; It had certainly lost a great deal by all accounts.&nbsp; 3 years after publishing 2e, D&amp;D was in SECOND PLACE to Vampire in sales (at least briefly).4e was briefly in second place to another D&amp;D game - Pathfinder.&nbsp; It would be more worrying if it had been a non-d20, non-D&amp;D game.&nbsp; But, it wasn't.&nbsp; A game that leveraged the D&amp;D name and a great deal of really, really excellent marketing (and I won't deny for a moment that Paizo is WAY better at marketting its game to existing D&amp;D players) managed to briefly pull ahead of 4e D&amp;D.&nbsp; We'll see how things go a few years down the road.I think it's the general tenor of a small, but EXTREMELY vocal segment of the community.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 5533575, member: 22779"] If I spent lots of time on the Paizo boards, I would think that 4e is the worst game ever written, right up there with FATAL and that WOTC employees regularly serve small furry animals live with their lunch. Never mind that WOTC has done more gamer outreach in the past couple of years than anyone's done in the past couple of decades with things like the D&D Encounters and Gamma World, which apparently gets completely overlooked when people on chat boards talk about "listening to the people". Really? This is well known? Or is it just commonly assumed without any actual facts backing it up. I thought it was sales of PHB's that were the majority of D&D sales. Those aren't hardcore fans buying typically. Those are the casual players who only buy one or two books ever and probably outnumber the hardcore players a hundred to one. Whereas in the groups I've typically played with, generally everyone had at least the PHB (of whatever edition) as well as a couple of other books. Whose anecdote wins? But your numbers here are completely fabricated based on your own experiences and not based on anything resembling a fact. You have no idea how many groups play with one player with a large library or if groups spread out the costs. For example, every group I've ever played with has included multiple DM's. Every single one. Therefore, just about every group has had multiple copies of a number of books. Might I ask how many times you've changed groups? A blip on the radar? I'm sure there are rather a large number of d20 publishers that don't think 3e to 3.5 was a blip on the radar. For most publishers, that was the death knell of their publishing in D&D. 3 years after publishing 2e, according to some claims by people here, D&D had lost almost HALF of its player base. It had certainly lost a great deal by all accounts. 3 years after publishing 2e, D&D was in SECOND PLACE to Vampire in sales (at least briefly). 4e was briefly in second place to another D&D game - Pathfinder. It would be more worrying if it had been a non-d20, non-D&D game. But, it wasn't. A game that leveraged the D&D name and a great deal of really, really excellent marketing (and I won't deny for a moment that Paizo is WAY better at marketting its game to existing D&D players) managed to briefly pull ahead of 4e D&D. We'll see how things go a few years down the road. I think it's the general tenor of a small, but EXTREMELY vocal segment of the community. [/QUOTE]

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