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When Fiends Attack: Are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultraloths too weak?
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<blockquote data-quote="CapnZapp" data-source="post: 7007399" data-attributes="member: 12731"><p>Yes, it is a problem. </p><p></p><p>The problem is that high-level play needs high-level monsters that are <strong>scary out of the box</strong>.</p><p></p><p>Otherwise you can't say the game supports high-level play, only allows it.</p><p></p><p>It is increasingly clear that the game will need a new "layer", a comprehensive rules addendum that adds true support for high-level characters. </p><p></p><p>Note: by high-level I include every meaning of that term:</p><p>* characters that are of high level (of course)</p><p>* characters that actually use the subsystems of the game: chiefly multiclassing, feats and magic items. Saying "those are optional" as an excuse for the game's manifest inability to handle characters equipped as such is an increasingly hollow excuse</p><p>* veteran players with experience, good tactical and statistical abilities</p><p></p><p>Such an addendum will need to provide, at minimum:</p><p>- a framework where encounters are no longer calibrated for being the 6th or 8th encounter in a day; alternatively optional rules to ensure that this happens even when the DM or adventure does not provide literary reasons for not resting</p><p>- monsters that are up to the task of providing high-level (per the definition above) challenges. This includes the designers being aware of the true DPR achievable by optimized parties. This includes the designers anticipating trivial kiting and other move-denial strategies easily achievable by high-level (again, per the complete definition above) parties, and equipping monsters accordingly. The short version: a monster with no other movement mode than a regular land speed has no business at high level, except possibly as simple grunts. Any monster described as a "leader", as "intelligent" or equivalent absolutely must be equipped with the necessary tools to manifest those traits, right there in the stat block.</p><p>- the "look at its Int score, it should easily outsmart the PCs" is dismissed as an excuse for shoddy and weak stat blocks. No monster should need non-trivial help from DMs to be able to fulfil its described role. Any monster that can't fulfil a role without such help has to have that role removed from its description!</p><p>- much more robust support for solo BBEGs. Anytime the only practical means to challenge a high-level party is to add more monsters, this is to be considered a hard FAIL for the design. If this means new rules that create "solo" monsters with abilities not achievable by regular specimens, so be it. After all, nobody is forced to use a given stat block, so let's just call any such solo support optional.</p><p>- more "elite" monster stats that have been given more proficiences, class abilities and even feats. Monsters and NPCs simply can't compete with PCs that have access to these systems. </p><p>- acknowledging that bounded accuracy has its limits, and that a lowly CR 1/2 humanoid simply doesn't work once the campaign shifts over to high-level play. Specifically, include more humanoids in the CR 5ish range (and any at CR ~10 would be a pleasant bonus)</p><p>- specific "elite" (high-CR) stat blocks unique to each humanoid. By now we've worn out the Veteran NPC stat block - we need and deserve unique Duergar, Gnome, Orc, Grimlock etc etc "Veterans"</p><p>- look at 4E for sheer joy and creativeness in monster abilities. Most single-digit CR humanoid stat blocks look and play almost identically, simply because NPCs aren't allowed to have unique and cool abilities! </p><p>- actual examples of all of the above. That is, not just new rule systems, but those new rules put into practice. <strong>Actual stat blocks</strong> ready to plop down into an encounter - in their dozens!</p><p></p><p></p><p>Other inclusions that would be nice to have would be:</p><p>- unshackling the metamagic subsystem from Sorcerers, so every spellcaster is given (optional) access to various metamagic options</p><p>- high-level means to break the "only one Concentration spell" hard limit. Do note that Concentration does two things: a) damage breaks your spell, b) you can't maintain another Concentration spell. At high level it is entirely reasonable to hand out abilities that allow you to break this limit in various ways, including splitting up use case a and b.</p><p>- a fix for the wonky saving throw bonuses that the base system leads to. Either no monster is given save DCs of above 20, or a new mechanism is instituted that means no high-level PC has a non-positive modifier. The design goal must be for every PC to be able to succeed at every save, preferably by rolling 17 or higher.</p><p>- rules support for low magic campaigns (as optional variants). The rules do talk about campaigns with less magic items and so on, but they are completely silent on the fact that nearly all player character subclasses grant access to spells or magical abilities, and there is no variant to switch out at-will cantrips. There could be much more rules coverage on this subject: alternatives to granting at-will cantrips to casters, at least one more entirely mundane (=unmagical) subclass for fighters, rogues, barbarians, rangers, paladins, and monks: no spells at all, no class features that are spells but in name. </p><p>- a more nuanced attunement system, so you can choose between - for example - attuning yourself to three major items (for your level), or perhaps six minor items (for your level) or any combination thereof. While the current system is adequate for most levels of play, it becomes too simple at very high level.</p><p>- more support for epic level play</p><p></p><p>If you want to call this rules supplement <strong>Advanced Dungeons & Dragons</strong>, I won't complain <img src="data:image/gif;base64,R0lGODlhAQABAIAAAAAAAP///yH5BAEAAAAALAAAAAABAAEAAAIBRAA7" class="smilie smilie--sprite smilie--sprite1" alt=":)" title="Smile :)" loading="lazy" data-shortname=":)" /></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="CapnZapp, post: 7007399, member: 12731"] Yes, it is a problem. The problem is that high-level play needs high-level monsters that are [B]scary out of the box[/B]. Otherwise you can't say the game supports high-level play, only allows it. It is increasingly clear that the game will need a new "layer", a comprehensive rules addendum that adds true support for high-level characters. Note: by high-level I include every meaning of that term: * characters that are of high level (of course) * characters that actually use the subsystems of the game: chiefly multiclassing, feats and magic items. Saying "those are optional" as an excuse for the game's manifest inability to handle characters equipped as such is an increasingly hollow excuse * veteran players with experience, good tactical and statistical abilities Such an addendum will need to provide, at minimum: - a framework where encounters are no longer calibrated for being the 6th or 8th encounter in a day; alternatively optional rules to ensure that this happens even when the DM or adventure does not provide literary reasons for not resting - monsters that are up to the task of providing high-level (per the definition above) challenges. This includes the designers being aware of the true DPR achievable by optimized parties. This includes the designers anticipating trivial kiting and other move-denial strategies easily achievable by high-level (again, per the complete definition above) parties, and equipping monsters accordingly. The short version: a monster with no other movement mode than a regular land speed has no business at high level, except possibly as simple grunts. Any monster described as a "leader", as "intelligent" or equivalent absolutely must be equipped with the necessary tools to manifest those traits, right there in the stat block. - the "look at its Int score, it should easily outsmart the PCs" is dismissed as an excuse for shoddy and weak stat blocks. No monster should need non-trivial help from DMs to be able to fulfil its described role. Any monster that can't fulfil a role without such help has to have that role removed from its description! - much more robust support for solo BBEGs. Anytime the only practical means to challenge a high-level party is to add more monsters, this is to be considered a hard FAIL for the design. If this means new rules that create "solo" monsters with abilities not achievable by regular specimens, so be it. After all, nobody is forced to use a given stat block, so let's just call any such solo support optional. - more "elite" monster stats that have been given more proficiences, class abilities and even feats. Monsters and NPCs simply can't compete with PCs that have access to these systems. - acknowledging that bounded accuracy has its limits, and that a lowly CR 1/2 humanoid simply doesn't work once the campaign shifts over to high-level play. Specifically, include more humanoids in the CR 5ish range (and any at CR ~10 would be a pleasant bonus) - specific "elite" (high-CR) stat blocks unique to each humanoid. By now we've worn out the Veteran NPC stat block - we need and deserve unique Duergar, Gnome, Orc, Grimlock etc etc "Veterans" - look at 4E for sheer joy and creativeness in monster abilities. Most single-digit CR humanoid stat blocks look and play almost identically, simply because NPCs aren't allowed to have unique and cool abilities! - actual examples of all of the above. That is, not just new rule systems, but those new rules put into practice. [B]Actual stat blocks[/B] ready to plop down into an encounter - in their dozens! Other inclusions that would be nice to have would be: - unshackling the metamagic subsystem from Sorcerers, so every spellcaster is given (optional) access to various metamagic options - high-level means to break the "only one Concentration spell" hard limit. Do note that Concentration does two things: a) damage breaks your spell, b) you can't maintain another Concentration spell. At high level it is entirely reasonable to hand out abilities that allow you to break this limit in various ways, including splitting up use case a and b. - a fix for the wonky saving throw bonuses that the base system leads to. Either no monster is given save DCs of above 20, or a new mechanism is instituted that means no high-level PC has a non-positive modifier. The design goal must be for every PC to be able to succeed at every save, preferably by rolling 17 or higher. - rules support for low magic campaigns (as optional variants). The rules do talk about campaigns with less magic items and so on, but they are completely silent on the fact that nearly all player character subclasses grant access to spells or magical abilities, and there is no variant to switch out at-will cantrips. There could be much more rules coverage on this subject: alternatives to granting at-will cantrips to casters, at least one more entirely mundane (=unmagical) subclass for fighters, rogues, barbarians, rangers, paladins, and monks: no spells at all, no class features that are spells but in name. - a more nuanced attunement system, so you can choose between - for example - attuning yourself to three major items (for your level), or perhaps six minor items (for your level) or any combination thereof. While the current system is adequate for most levels of play, it becomes too simple at very high level. - more support for epic level play If you want to call this rules supplement [B]Advanced Dungeons & Dragons[/B], I won't complain :) [/QUOTE]
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