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Message: <blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 7018173" data-attributes="member: 6787650">Which "we"? Inclusive or exclusive?I have stats for demon lords in Out of the Abyss. I'm not super happy with them, because aside from Orcus they're all strategically pretty weak and non-magical, and I don't buy any of those stat blocks as plausible warlock patrons. But I do have those stats, and when someone refers to 5E Demogorgon or 5E Grazz't I know what they're referring to, and both of them are clearly more powerful than a Balor.If you're trying to put material in context, it makes sense to use as much of the context as you have. If you're trying to compare WotC Balors to WotC demon lords, then you might as well refer to OOTA. If you're trying to compare Dave2008 balors to Dave2008 demon lords, you might as well read the whole Epic Monsters thread.If you want information on WotC demon lords and you don't own OOTA, you could ask for details on those demon lords you're interested in. I'll tell you right now that Orcus is interesting because he gets to permanently create some large amount of undead per day (300 HP worth? my book is only thirty feet away but my cat is sitting on my legs and I don't feel like disturbing her) and they are his permanent servants--so even though he's not that impressive personally, he's a huge strategic threat that can flood the world with liches and dracoliches and death knights given time.</blockquote>