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When Fiends Attack: Are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultraloths too weak?
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<blockquote data-quote="FormerlyHemlock" data-source="post: 7021300" data-attributes="member: 6787650"><p>Any dragon with at least 2nd level spells. Darkness (+blindsight because dragon) and Shield plus the dragon chassis makes for a wonderfully tough slugger. Give it a few more levels (e.g. Dragon Sorc 9 for Counterspell V in lieu of Shield) if you want something even more impressive.</p><p></p><p>For what it's worth, my <a href="https://repl.it/EnFq/26" target="_blank">crude simulation</a> of 4 moderately-optimized 17th level Eldritch Knights (Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter, no magic weapons) vs. an adult red dragon using these slugging tactics indicates that the dragon outright wins about 75% of the time, with only 1-2 PCs surviving on average the other 25% of the time:</p><p></p><p><strong>Rupert Grint the the Archer and Elias the the Archer and John the the Archer and Katie the the Archer win 23 out of 100 matches against Falgavarnon the the Red, with 1.65 members still alive on average</strong></p><p><strong></strong></p><p>20th level PCs with +2 magic weapons and more optimization (Lucky feat for attacking) win more often, 100 out of 100 matches, usually not even losing a PC. (20th level without Lucky and without magic weapons wins 98% of the time, losing 1 PC on average.) But against an Ancient Red with the exact same tactics and magic, they win only ~9 out of 100 matches, with only 1 or 2 PCs surviving even when they do win. That's 91% TPK.</p><p></p><p><strong>Rufus the Archer and Rufus the Archer and Rufus the Archer and Rufus the Archer win 9 out of 100 matches against Gartuoloth the the Ancient Red, with 1.33 members still alive on average</strong></p><p></p><p><strong>Edit:</strong> BTW, in both cases (adult red vs. 17th level party, and ancient red vs. 20th level party), a typical fight seems to last about 9 rounds.</p><p></p><p>Counter-tactics are possible, such as Dispelling the Darkness (or just pre-casting True Sight on everyone) and then also Counterspelling the dragon's Shield spells, which swings the odds back in the PCs' favor. But of course real PC parties won't have four (!) ranged-optimized 20th level fighters in the party. And of course the dragon will probably be using more sophisticated tactics than just Darkness + Shield.</p><p></p><p>But the point is made: adding spellcasting to dragons makes them more than capable of standing up to PCs in a fair fight, to the tune of 92% TPK against an optimized party.</p><p></p><p>Code is here: <a href="https://repl.it/EnFq/26" target="_blank">https://repl.it/EnFq/26</a></p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="FormerlyHemlock, post: 7021300, member: 6787650"] Any dragon with at least 2nd level spells. Darkness (+blindsight because dragon) and Shield plus the dragon chassis makes for a wonderfully tough slugger. Give it a few more levels (e.g. Dragon Sorc 9 for Counterspell V in lieu of Shield) if you want something even more impressive. For what it's worth, my [URL="https://repl.it/EnFq/26"]crude simulation[/URL] of 4 moderately-optimized 17th level Eldritch Knights (Crossbow Expert + Sharpshooter, no magic weapons) vs. an adult red dragon using these slugging tactics indicates that the dragon outright wins about 75% of the time, with only 1-2 PCs surviving on average the other 25% of the time: [B]Rupert Grint the the Archer and Elias the the Archer and John the the Archer and Katie the the Archer win 23 out of 100 matches against Falgavarnon the the Red, with 1.65 members still alive on average [/B] 20th level PCs with +2 magic weapons and more optimization (Lucky feat for attacking) win more often, 100 out of 100 matches, usually not even losing a PC. (20th level without Lucky and without magic weapons wins 98% of the time, losing 1 PC on average.) But against an Ancient Red with the exact same tactics and magic, they win only ~9 out of 100 matches, with only 1 or 2 PCs surviving even when they do win. That's 91% TPK. [B]Rufus the Archer and Rufus the Archer and Rufus the Archer and Rufus the Archer win 9 out of 100 matches against Gartuoloth the the Ancient Red, with 1.33 members still alive on average[/B] [B]Edit:[/B] BTW, in both cases (adult red vs. 17th level party, and ancient red vs. 20th level party), a typical fight seems to last about 9 rounds. Counter-tactics are possible, such as Dispelling the Darkness (or just pre-casting True Sight on everyone) and then also Counterspelling the dragon's Shield spells, which swings the odds back in the PCs' favor. But of course real PC parties won't have four (!) ranged-optimized 20th level fighters in the party. And of course the dragon will probably be using more sophisticated tactics than just Darkness + Shield. But the point is made: adding spellcasting to dragons makes them more than capable of standing up to PCs in a fair fight, to the tune of 92% TPK against an optimized party. Code is here: [URL]https://repl.it/EnFq/26[/URL] [/QUOTE]
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When Fiends Attack: Are Balors, Pit Fiends and Ultraloths too weak?
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