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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 3999681" data-attributes="member: 2067">#1: The fighter doesn't really *have* powers in any currently available edition. His ability is to inflict attrition on the enemy. #2: A rogue's sneak attack/backstab is highly situational, making it dependent on the DM allowing such a thing to occur. And when it does, it boils down to the rogue having slightly swifter attrition on the enemy.#3: HP and even wand charges are still a limited resource. A case could certainly be made that in 3e this was less true than in other editions, but even in 3e it was STILL limited. There are many examples of things in 4e that have been bandied about that make them significantly less so, making 4e worse than what 3e was (even if 3e was less suited to it than 1e or 2e, which I think is still true). You're missing the point. It's not about tension. It's about attrition. If you can easily replace what is lost, it ISN'T ATTRITION. Yeah, there can still be tension, but it's significantly different in feel -- attrition makes the game survivalist, as you struggle against an entropy. A lack of attrition signifies a more heroic game where you're really only worried about significant effects. These aren't hard-and-fast rules, but they are a feel implied by the mechanics. I'm not saying that there can't be tension with easily available healing, but I AM saying that it's a different feel for the game, one that not everyone appreciates.Why would they need more resources? They have hp to begin with, right? Why lengthen their 'safety net' when the fun is partially about how fast they're loosing that safety net? Some of the fun in dungeon survival is dealing with a handicap, after all.Nothing I said contradicts this at all. 4e seems to be taming down the dungeon survival aspect of the game, because of reasons XYZ. Some people have a lot of  fun with dungeon survival games, and 4e will not be able to make them feel totally at home.What part of that do you disagree with?Is it that 4e is taming down dungeon survival aspects? I reference hardier 1st level characters, endlessly renewing resources, the reduction of save or die and save or suck effects (including traps and "gotcha monsters") and more easily accessible healing as evidence that they are.Is it that 4e will be able to make dungeon survival fans feel at home? If so, reference parts of 4e that represent true (not temporary) attrition, and sudden shocking doom for me.And are any of those disagreements related at all to your claim that no edition of D&D pays attention to Dungeon Survival? Or have you abandoned that line of reasoning?</blockquote>

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