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Message: <blockquote data-quote="I'm A Banana" data-source="post: 4000269" data-attributes="member: 2067">Heheh, don't get me wrong, RC, I still generally prefer my D&D to be heroic adventure. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" />But I can see where 4e is giving up some things to get to there. Generally, I'm for that. I think a good d20-style game can be based on 4e/3e that takes dungeon survival truly to heart and can do it really well, and I'd look forward to playing that, too. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f642.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=":)" title="Smile    :)"  data-smilie="1"data-shortname=":)" />Except I don't think it's TOTALLY off the table. I think it's minimized and marginalized and greatly reduced, that it will require some careful DMing tricks, house rules, and optional rules. I think a clever clever clever 3rd Party Publisher could pounce on "4e Dungeon Survival" like a tiger and get a pretty good fanbase without much in the way of design effort. And I do think that dungeon survival is *more* suited to earlier editions than it will be to 4th, because of the aforementioned 4e limits on shocking doom and slow attrition. Though my experience with modules is vastly limited, I do think you're right -- published adventures reflected heroic adventure more than dungeon survival (though as you point out Tomb of Horrors, and any kind of character-munching dungeon would qualify). Which is part of why I said that heroic adventure was in D&D from the very beginning. 4e is definately leaning on that part of the game more. Perfect example of why they don't fit all playstyles, and why they (probably) won't be in 4e, which is stressing the heroic adventure model more than the dungeon survival model. Exactly the same reason I got rid of them in FFZ (which is heroic adventure on crack). But they are part of the slow attrition in dungeon survival, part of the atmosphere of knowing you're not meant to be here, that this is something else's home, and that you are unwelcome. Wandering monsters existed to give players a jolt of 'can't stay here long.'There definately is some. I believe Races & Classes mentioned that the very first 4e theory got rid of almost all of them, but one of the designers pointed out that resource management is part of the fun of D&D. So there is some. Kind of. While this is definately in the model of attrition, dungeon survival also needs those "SURPRISE, YOU ARE DEAD!" moments. This is what keeps the party poking every square with a 10' pole. Anywhere could hide something instantly and unavoidably deadly, so hyper-caution is the name of the strategy. Every dungeon survival group has seen at least one careless rogue wind up as wet red paste because he thought he could take a step without checking for traps, first. That "binary" play is what makes for some of the fun of pacing. Most groups would get bored just with one challenge (attrition). Slow, slow, slow....FAST....slow....FAST....slow.....FAST, FAST, FAST.....Treasure!I do believe this will likely be the case. And the taming is what folks who love the dungeon survival are worried about, because it means more work for them to get the game they like to play. I only hear a few hyperbolic grousings ("do characters die anymore?"), I hear a lot more of the whole "there's more than one kind of fun!" kind of talk. Which just seems to want to remind the designers that D&D has had at least two strong styles of gameplay, one of which certainly looks like it's being pushed away farther with the newest edition.</blockquote>

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