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Message: <blockquote data-quote="TheHypnoDragonToad" data-source="post: 8191664" data-attributes="member: 7029579">Ok, so this thread is quite dated but in case anyone comes looking here in the future as I did:While we can all appreciate that "stunned" does not mean "completely helpless", I think we can also all agree that if you are stunned, you are NOT going to be able to fully react to a threat!!!. Anyone who has any experience in combat or even any gamer who has experienced a flashbang-type effect in a game - for the non-combatants out there - should intuitively understand that, despite a lack of rules covering this case, it doesn't make sense that a stunned or similarly incapacitated creature would get their full reflex save. So at the very least, depending on the exact state (stunned/dazed/etc.) there should be a more of less steep penalty to Reflex saves (e.g.: -1 or -2 for dazed, -3 or -4 for stunned, etc.).When considering other saves however, things are different: Fortitude saves can be understood as simply your body's natural resilience. Even a helpless creature is entitled to a Fort save (against a Coup de Grace, for example). Therefore, it should be obvious that in the OP's scenario, casts of a subsequent spell with a Fort based save would not be affected at all.Will is an interesting case. While a stunned creature should probably have a penalty to Will saves (have you ever been knocked into a dizzied state? Any activity that is concentration based would be severely hampered), a creature incapacitated by a Hold Person or other similar effect would technically be fully in control of their will, although their body is not responding (as is described in the the Hold Person spell description).Therefore, I personally would rule that a stunned creature would get a penalty to both Reflex  and Will saves while a character under an effect such as Hold Person/Monster or any other effect that fully restricts movement would only have their reflex saves diminished while leaving the rest untouched.Hopefully a happy medium for everyone.</blockquote>

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