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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Amal Shukup" data-source="post: 1647283" data-attributes="member: 6291">Players and DMs should collaborate on the evolution of a Character within a campaign. Each party in this collaboration has an absolute veto. "This is how my world works. Like it or lump it" vs "I'm not going to play that." Within the limits established by those extreme positions, everything is negotiable...I thought the requirements for 'self-improvement' on the part of the character were very much in keeping with the spirit of a Holy Warrior repenting and bettering himself within the context of his faith and his church. Very innovative and clever.I think it would be appropriate to discuss the ramifications of the Stat and Skill Point increases (how it limits/opens up future possibilities etc.) with the newbie player so that he can make an informed decision and take the opportunity to lodge an objection - if any. I know that I wouldn't were I the player, but others might feel differently.To players who object to the Stat/Skill requirement on the abstract 'principle' that DMs should not interfere with character development: "Don't want to do the Stat/Skill thing? Oh well, so much for a creative solution. 'Poof!' - your powers are stripped. Atone. Don't like that either? 'Poof!' - you're a warrior, get used to it. No? 'Zampf!' - Your Character is DEAD. Roll up a new one. You are no longer permitted to play a Paladin in my campaign..."Lots of options...Other classic punishments for Paladins - usually applied only until some sort of repentance is achieved:Strike 'em Blind (a la Saul of Tarsus) Bestow a Curse Stigmata -  Minus 1d4 CON + constant attrition of Hit Points from blood loss Geas/Quest 'em Bolts of Lightning/Fire/Searing Light/Meteors from the blue. Repeat as necessary Healing Magic no longer works on subject Visited with visions and nightmares - no longer able to fully rest, constantly fatigued/exhausted Madness (a la Lancelot) 'Loss of favor' - the opposite of 'Action Points' (DM subtracts a D6 from key D20 rolls by the player) A Celestial/Deva/Angel is dispatched to remonstrate with/punish the transgressor Excommunicate 'em - no more support from the church or followers thereof Sign of Cain - Something obvious that tells the whole world that Paladin-boy is in trouble Inflict a debilitating disease - Mmmnnn  Boils...A'Mal</blockquote>

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