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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Elder-Basilisk" data-source="post: 1689173" data-attributes="member: 3146">Not so. Taking your example (hide), let's see how this plays out for our typical rogue who wants to do something rogueish--in this case, sneak into a fortified villa and steal some stuff.Let's assume he's 8th level and has a 20 dex. With the boots and cloak of elvenkind, he has a +10 hide bonus. If he chugs the elixir of hiding, he has a +20 bonus. If he maxed ranks and had the magic items, he'll have a +21 bonus. If he maxed ranks, has the items, and chugs the potion, he'll have a +31 bonus.There is an outer wall that is patrolled by guards (possibly guards with dogs). The rogue has to sneak up to this wall (let's say that requires one round of hiding while moving at full speed or two rounds while moving at half-speed). He then climbs over the wall after the guards have walked past, jumps and tumbles down the other side and crosses the villa's courtyard. Crossing the villa's courtyard requires a similar amount of movement.Then, inside the villa, he takes a moment to pick the lock on the back door or open a window. (Let's call this another round of hiding). Once inside, he'll have to sneak through some inner rooms (let's call this 20 rounds of checks against foes who have -10 to -20 to their checks because they're asleep, behind walls or both and two rounds against foes who just have -5 to their checks for being non-alert). He then steals the macguffin and sneaks out the way he came in.A few stipulations: The guards are pretty competent fellows. War 3s with max cross-class spot and listen, Alertness and skill focus spot. That gives them a +8 spot bonus and +5 listen. We'll assume the guards outside travel in pairs and that the rogue can pick a time to cross the courtyard when their torches don't illumine it but he'll still (theoretically) be in view of two guards on the walls and two on the courtyard when he crosses).His chance to get to the wall unseen:Items only: 33%Items and elixir: 74%Items and skills: 79%Items, skills, and elixir: 100%His chance to get across the courtyard unseen:Items only: 11%Items and elixir: 69%Items and skills: 75%Items, skills, and elixir: 100%His chance to get through the inner rooms undetected:Items only: 60%Items and elixir: 97%Items and skills: 99%Items, skills, and elixir: 100%His chance to pull everything off undetcted:Items only: 0.5%Items and elixir: 25%Items and skills: 34%Items, skills, and elixir: 100%The odds go up dramatically for the items and skills character if he gets a few spells like heroism that give him a slight boost to his skills but Mr. Items or Items and Elixir is SOL.I think that this analysis demonstrates that anyone who thinks he can get by without skill points in hide is fooling himself. Invisibility makes it easier but the guards still have a fair chance to spot or hear the presence of an invisible opponent--especially one who, confident in his invisibility, approaches near them--and home in on him using the dogs (or break out some kind of item designed to ferret out invisible foes--if the villa has something that's worth a 10th level rogue's attention, it has something that generates enough profit to buy some kind of consumable invisibility detecting item for the guards--personally, I allow potions of See Invisibility and Invisibility Purge in my games).Invisibility also suffers from two other drawbacks:1. See Invisibility. If a rogue expects to ambush a high level group of characters using invisibility, he needs to come to terms with the fact that high level characters can keep See Invisibility active nearly all day if they want to. (At 12th level, it lasts 2 hours--with a lesser rod of extend spell, that's 4 hours, and with a pearl of power II, that's 8 hours). Now, see invisibility doesn't negate hide so if the character is hiding as well as invisible, he won't necessarily be seen but that presupposes some actual skill at hiding.2. Limited duration. Invisibility would be helpful in the sneak and grab routine described above. However, if said rogue wants to sneak into the enemy castle, listen in on the king's council, and come away to report the contents of the discussion, even ten minutes won't be enough. A character very skilled at hiding might well have pretty good odds of pulling it off (see analysis above for skills, items, and elixir (or two--they last longer than invisibility but not indefinitely)). A character relying on invisibility won't. Similarly, if you're laying an ambush for foes who will be coming down the road "sometime in the afternoon" invisibility won't help-at least not without a forward scout who can actually hide and signal the rest of the party to cast invisibility before the foes show up.There are indeed skills that items and spells can substitute for. However, Hide is not nearly as reliably such a skill as you seem to think.</blockquote>

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