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<blockquote data-quote="Gothmog" data-source="post: 2893889" data-attributes="member: 317">What you just said here is something I've been trying to put into words for a couple years, but haven't been able to explicity state- thank you!&nbsp; &quot;If you don't learn the rules, you get screwed by the rules.&quot;&nbsp; That is what REALLY bugs me about D&amp;D 3.x (and D20 Modern)- the overpowering shift towards using a rule to account for any situation.&nbsp; AoO, skill synergies, feat chains, etc- its all connected, and unless a player is a master of the rules and plays the metagame of D&amp;D, they are decidedly subpar compared to other players, monsters, and NPCs in published materials.&nbsp; So while everybody is there to roleplay and have fun, the fiddly-bits of the rules tend to get in the way and occlude ACTUALLY PLAYING.&nbsp; Truly a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees.While I understand this may not be the case for everyone playing D&amp;D, it definitely has been for my long-term group, and for 8 or 9 other groups I've played in since 3.x came out.&nbsp; I don't remember the stressing over the rules and the metagame aspects when playing AD&amp;D or 2E- mostly because the complicated fiddly-bits weren't there.&nbsp; And while its cool to be able to personalize a character with tons of mechanical options, in the end the character feels more like a robot with statistical capabilities than it does a character- because to succeed in 3.x, you have to focus on the mechanical aspects.&nbsp; Its the way the game is built.&nbsp; Thats a smart move by WotC because they can (and have) come out with endless varieties of &quot;crunch&quot; books that players want to buy to trick out their characters- and that means $$$$ for WotC.&nbsp; But I think this is bad for the game as a whole, since the complexity of the 3.x rules will drive new players away from the game (and yes, I've seen this happen at least a dozen times), and I don't know how many times I've heard in real life and on these boards &quot;something just doesn't feel right about 3.x&quot;.While other RPGs out there still have some metagame aspects, none of them (with maybe the exception of HERO or GURPS) can rival 3.x in that regard.&nbsp; For me and my group, the convoluted ruleset DOES get in the way of having fun, creativity, and enjoyment.&nbsp; We like a certain degree of DM fiat and player freedom.&nbsp; And while the mantra of D&amp;D 3.x was &quot;options, not restrictions&quot;, the 3.x ruleset IS restricting, unless you have one style of game in mind (metagaming, combat heavy with superpowered characters).&nbsp; My group and I have found that Savage Worlds, BRP,&nbsp; and WHFRP 2 suit our gaming needs much better- allowing for more freedom to act and not worry about the stats as much.&nbsp; While 3.x has concerns about &quot;optimal character builds&quot;, those three games don't to nearly the degree 3.x does.&nbsp; So if someone isn't the best at some action, it doesn't matter as much- you just come up with an interesting plan and go for it.&nbsp; In D&amp;D, a lot of people micromanage out their synergy bonuses, skill ranks, feat chains, and even character advancement to 20th level- and that behavior is rewarded and encouraged because of the assumptions in the books.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Gothmog, post: 2893889, member: 317"] What you just said here is something I've been trying to put into words for a couple years, but haven't been able to explicity state- thank you! "If you don't learn the rules, you get screwed by the rules." That is what REALLY bugs me about D&D 3.x (and D20 Modern)- the overpowering shift towards using a rule to account for any situation. AoO, skill synergies, feat chains, etc- its all connected, and unless a player is a master of the rules and plays the metagame of D&D, they are decidedly subpar compared to other players, monsters, and NPCs in published materials. So while everybody is there to roleplay and have fun, the fiddly-bits of the rules tend to get in the way and occlude ACTUALLY PLAYING. Truly a case of not being able to see the forest for the trees. While I understand this may not be the case for everyone playing D&D, it definitely has been for my long-term group, and for 8 or 9 other groups I've played in since 3.x came out. I don't remember the stressing over the rules and the metagame aspects when playing AD&D or 2E- mostly because the complicated fiddly-bits weren't there. And while its cool to be able to personalize a character with tons of mechanical options, in the end the character feels more like a robot with statistical capabilities than it does a character- because to succeed in 3.x, you have to focus on the mechanical aspects. Its the way the game is built. Thats a smart move by WotC because they can (and have) come out with endless varieties of "crunch" books that players want to buy to trick out their characters- and that means $$$$ for WotC. But I think this is bad for the game as a whole, since the complexity of the 3.x rules will drive new players away from the game (and yes, I've seen this happen at least a dozen times), and I don't know how many times I've heard in real life and on these boards "something just doesn't feel right about 3.x". While other RPGs out there still have some metagame aspects, none of them (with maybe the exception of HERO or GURPS) can rival 3.x in that regard. For me and my group, the convoluted ruleset DOES get in the way of having fun, creativity, and enjoyment. We like a certain degree of DM fiat and player freedom. And while the mantra of D&D 3.x was "options, not restrictions", the 3.x ruleset IS restricting, unless you have one style of game in mind (metagaming, combat heavy with superpowered characters). My group and I have found that Savage Worlds, BRP, and WHFRP 2 suit our gaming needs much better- allowing for more freedom to act and not worry about the stats as much. While 3.x has concerns about "optimal character builds", those three games don't to nearly the degree 3.x does. So if someone isn't the best at some action, it doesn't matter as much- you just come up with an interesting plan and go for it. In D&D, a lot of people micromanage out their synergy bonuses, skill ranks, feat chains, and even character advancement to 20th level- and that behavior is rewarded and encouraged because of the assumptions in the books. [/QUOTE]

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