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<blockquote data-quote="boredgremlin" data-source="post: 2894512" data-attributes="member: 31646">I used to think 3e worked for RP. And i have played for 12 years now in a bunch of systems. One game totally changed my mind....&nbsp;&nbsp; Gamer 1- he wanted to make a general based on spartacus. Unfortunately diplomacy and bluff suck for fighters. So his fighter had no chance to talk decently, and when he was talking to someone his sense motive sucked. So it was virtually impossible to turn a fighter into a rebel rousing, loyalty inspiring Spartacus. &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; He needed diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and knowledge (military tactics) to be a believable slave freeing Spartacus. Unfortunately 2 skillpoints per level and most of those being non class skills rendered Spartacus impossible to believably achieve as a fighter. Neither ranger nor palidan made sense so Spartacus was clearly impossible to have ever existed as a character. &nbsp; &nbsp; Gamer 2- wanted to be an army ranger type character. It was medieval but he was a hardcase professional elvish soldier who hated magic and thought it was corrupting his people.&nbsp; Having some expertise in the area i told him he needed wilderness surival, weapons skills and great physical prowess. &nbsp; &nbsp; Unfortunately this meant he needed wilderness lore, spot, listen, search, ride and handle animal to be a believable ranger in a fantasy setting. Of course the fighters 2 skill pts dont add up to be anyone decent at anything, so his very cool layout of a magic hating zealot who did all he could to protect his home got FUBAR'D into a non magical ranger variant from the unearthed arcana that we both hated. &nbsp;&nbsp; In both cases D20 directly killed great character concepts based on RP. I have had many games like this. So many in fact that i decided to completely ditch D20 and moved to a storyteller system, basically from White Wolf....&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; All my players are happy, they can actually create the character they want. &nbsp; I knew D20 was crap when i saw the bluff and diplomacy skills way back when. Any game that takes role playing and reduces it to rolling a D20 with a few modifiers has completely failed and killed real RP.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="boredgremlin, post: 2894512, member: 31646"] I used to think 3e worked for RP. And i have played for 12 years now in a bunch of systems. One game totally changed my mind.... Gamer 1- he wanted to make a general based on spartacus. Unfortunately diplomacy and bluff suck for fighters. So his fighter had no chance to talk decently, and when he was talking to someone his sense motive sucked. So it was virtually impossible to turn a fighter into a rebel rousing, loyalty inspiring Spartacus. He needed diplomacy, bluff, sense motive and knowledge (military tactics) to be a believable slave freeing Spartacus. Unfortunately 2 skillpoints per level and most of those being non class skills rendered Spartacus impossible to believably achieve as a fighter. Neither ranger nor palidan made sense so Spartacus was clearly impossible to have ever existed as a character. Gamer 2- wanted to be an army ranger type character. It was medieval but he was a hardcase professional elvish soldier who hated magic and thought it was corrupting his people. Having some expertise in the area i told him he needed wilderness surival, weapons skills and great physical prowess. Unfortunately this meant he needed wilderness lore, spot, listen, search, ride and handle animal to be a believable ranger in a fantasy setting. Of course the fighters 2 skill pts dont add up to be anyone decent at anything, so his very cool layout of a magic hating zealot who did all he could to protect his home got FUBAR'D into a non magical ranger variant from the unearthed arcana that we both hated. In both cases D20 directly killed great character concepts based on RP. I have had many games like this. So many in fact that i decided to completely ditch D20 and moved to a storyteller system, basically from White Wolf.... All my players are happy, they can actually create the character they want. I knew D20 was crap when i saw the bluff and diplomacy skills way back when. Any game that takes role playing and reduces it to rolling a D20 with a few modifiers has completely failed and killed real RP. [/QUOTE]

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