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<blockquote data-quote="big dummy" data-source="post: 2897011" data-attributes="member: 41052">Like the thread, not surprisignly and I agree with the OP. I think the social contract idea is a good point.&nbsp; But I have another.I don't think it's jut the level of complexity which defines the game.&nbsp; Again, the social contract which is impliedin the flavor of the rules playes a role, but so do the specific rules.&nbsp; The Riddle of Steel for example has an extremely realistic combat system and is a fairly complex game in terms of rules, probably almost as complex as 3E (epecially if you use all the options from all the expansions) yet due to the nature of those rules it heavily emphasizes role playing.&nbsp; In fact, due to the key &quot;Spiritual Attribute&quot; mechanic, the best way to min-max your character in play IS to role play and think of ways of tying your characters motivations into the plot of the game.Conversely, I've played some older rules-lite games which seemed to encourage all the min maxing and more mechanical modes of play.&nbsp; Same for video games and some MMORPGs of course.Bottom line though, I think with 3E both the social contract (as interpreted by the fan base on the web especially) and the rules mechanics themselves (certain ones in particular) contribute to the problems outlined by the OP and other posters.&nbsp; I've seen the same thing many times.BD</blockquote>

[QUOTE="big dummy, post: 2897011, member: 41052"] Like the thread, not surprisignly and I agree with the OP. I think the social contract idea is a good point. But I have another. I don't think it's jut the level of complexity which defines the game. Again, the social contract which is impliedin the flavor of the rules playes a role, but so do the specific rules. The Riddle of Steel for example has an extremely realistic combat system and is a fairly complex game in terms of rules, probably almost as complex as 3E (epecially if you use all the options from all the expansions) yet due to the nature of those rules it heavily emphasizes role playing. In fact, due to the key "Spiritual Attribute" mechanic, the best way to min-max your character in play IS to role play and think of ways of tying your characters motivations into the plot of the game. Conversely, I've played some older rules-lite games which seemed to encourage all the min maxing and more mechanical modes of play. Same for video games and some MMORPGs of course. Bottom line though, I think with 3E both the social contract (as interpreted by the fan base on the web especially) and the rules mechanics themselves (certain ones in particular) contribute to the problems outlined by the OP and other posters. I've seen the same thing many times. BD [/QUOTE]

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