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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Celebrim" data-source="post: 2189958" data-attributes="member: 4937">Actually, it is, it's just that when you have a sniper on the roof, you have a very very complicated situation.Sniper on the roof does a hide check (with a pretty good circumstantial bonus) vs. the PC's spot check (who have a pretty good penalty due to distance).   PC's that win know that the sniper is there.Sniper on the roof now does a spot check (with a pretty good penalty due to distance) vs. the PC's hide check (which may have been a 'assume the character has taken 0' situation if the PC's aren't being cautious) and otherwise adjusted for reality.For example, it might be possible that the sniper who is supposed to be watching a courtyard doesn't immediately notice that anyone has entered it (he's distracted, daydreaming, etc.) but if he notices at least one member of the party, then he sees everyone that's also in the courtyard standing next to that character in his LOS as well (even if they themselves would have otherwise escaped notice).  Note that I wouldn't assume that this is true if instead we were talking about a brush filled glade at night where everyone had some degree of concealment and/or cover.   If the sniper wins, he knows that the characters (that he sees) are there.Now, already you have a situation.  Either side that is aware of the other one can now call for an initiative check, indicating that they want to immediately take some combat related action (draw a weapon, duck for cover, hustle somewhere, take a snap shot).  For either side that is not aware, this is a suprise round and they don't get initiative numbers until the following round.   For everyone else, you get partial actions in initiative order.But it can get even more complicated.   Suppose neither side wants to take an immediate combat related actions.  Effectively both sides have held their move to the next turn.   The PC's are talking with an NPC; the sniper is waiting to see what happens.    Why does this work?  Because while taking a ready action changes you initiative, but doesn't change your initiative order, so we can effectively ignore it if we want, and I usually do.   OK, so Sniper on the roof does a sense motive check (with a penalty due to distance) opposed by the bluff checks of every character that is aware of him.   If he wins, he's aware that he's been made, and hense that at least some of the targets are no longer flatfooted and further that he has lost his chance at a free surprise round.If he becomes aware that he's made, PC's make sense motive checks (with a penalty due to distance) opposed by the bluff check of the sniper.   If the PC's win, they are aware that the sniper is aware that he's been made, and hense that they've lost any chance of surprising him.Now we potentially have 3 groups.   PC's aware the sniper and aware that the sniper is aware that they know he is thier (if he is).   PC's aware of the sniper, but not aware that he is (or is not) aware of them.   And the sniper, who at this time may or may not see the PC's and may or may not be aware that they see him even if he does.   Again, any aware group can ask for any initiative check, and all aware groups from the previous round can now take 20 if they didn't otherwise act in the previous round.   Note that this means that anyone that suspects that thier reflexes are poor should have taken immediate action in the previous round, as initiative order of most non-surprised characters is now going to be non-random.   Still unaware groups still treat this as a surprise round,  plus are very likely to lose initiative when the events suddenly start going down.Meanwhile, sniper on the roof could if he gets a surprise round, attempt to rehide (at a -20 penalty) leaving everyone unaware still unaware.   If none of the PC's are aware, I still probably wouldn't bother with an initiative roll, until after the sniper tried again and after someone spotted him.The point is, you can hold initiative rolls until well into the encounter provided no one immediately wants to do something that would effect the combat.   The moment any combat related interaction directly or indirectly is going to occur, you have to start dealing with initiative.</blockquote>

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