D&D 5E When to Roll Initiative

[Hriston]

... by which I mean when do you begin a combat encounter?

I've noticed a variety of approaches to this question that end up having some significant effects on how things like Surprise and Stealth play out in the combat. The convention seems to be to only begin combat when PCs or monsters (or both) are clearly about to engage in hostilities, but extremes may be found that advocate rolling initiative either before or after this point in time.

One extreme seems to favor an opening attack that occurs outside of initiative order, followed by a general initiative roll for subsequent attacks.

Then there is my favored method which relies on an idea of encounter distance, the limit beyond which parties must necessarily be unaware of each other. This can be the limit of hearing or sight, and can change depending on environmental conditions, whether interior or exterior.

It goes like this: when the PCs and the party they are about to have an encounter with are close enough that they could conceivably become aware of each other, that's when I begin the encounter. There is a frozen moment in time, the beginning of the encounter, in which surprise is determined and initiative is rolled. I also, if it hasn't already been done, like to determine the starting attitude of the monsters toward the PCs at this time. Then round one begins.

The result of this approach is that the parties may be too far away from each other to engage right away, reducing the impact of surprise, but they also might have stumbled upon each other in very close quarters. One or even both sides might be surprised, and anyone who is unsurprised can decide to spend the first round attacking, closing to combat, sneaking away to avoid combat, or even opening a parley. Whoever has the first turn can use it to shape the encounter that follows. If the encounter turns into a social interaction, for example, we can drop out of initiative.

That's the way I do it, and I'd be interested to hear anyone's opinions on that sort of method, since I feel that I'm in the minority in doing it this way. I'd also like to hear about how you start an encounter and why you feel that it's the best way for you and your group.

Cheers!

 

[Rabbitbait]

My answer is - it depends. I usually follow your method, but possibly not at long distance where not much is actually going to happen.

Often a fight starts mid conversation, or a fight is interrupted by a conversation, then starts again and initiative is rerolled.

In short - I don't have any hard rules, I call initiative when it feels right to call it.

 

[Paraxis]

The only rule of initiative is it is rolled when combat begins. You can not make an attack outside of initiative.

Sometimes I use turn by turn initiative in exploration but it is rare, mostly only immediately after a fight.

The second someone is about to make a hostile action towards another you call for initiative.

EDIT: to add this image

 

[DEFCON 1]

I don't roll initiative until the first hostile action is taken and the person doing it will usually go first. This can only be counteracted provided another person in the party says they are trying to stop their party-member from attacking, and at that point I'd roll initiative between the two to see if the second player could stop the first.

So for instance, the party is talking to a band of orcs and one of the rash party members says they fire their bow at the nearest orc (because that player doesn't want to parlay). Now, theoretically that would start combat and thus you'd roll initiative... but I find the idea that this particular PC who said they were starting the fight somehow ends up going AFTER every other character because they rolled poorly on initiative makes no narrative sense to me at all and thus I don't bother with initiative yet.

Instead, the PC says they are attacking, and I give any other members of her party the chance to react to this (because they notice her nocking an arrow and bringing up the bow for example). If a party member is close enough to try and stop her (by physically grabbing the bow or throwing her a look to tell her to stop what she's doing), then I'd have both of them roll initiative to see which of them got to go first and do whatever it was they wanted. If the attack was not stopped for whatever reason, at *that* point I'd have everyone else roll initiative, slotting in those two PCs who had already rolled. So even though the bowman went "first" in that out-of-initiative attack, they might not react fast enough to go first in the first round of actual combat. Which I'm fine with.

By the same token when it comes to stealth and surprise... I run it old-style wherein you only get a "surprise round action" if you aren't surprised. If you are surprised, you don't get a "turn" in the surprise round. Which does mean it goes against the "rules" stating you get your Reaction once your spot in the initiative order comes and goes during the Surprise round, but frankly I don't care. I've never had a problem with it either way, and if doing it my way eliminates the arguments about the Assassinate ability (wherein the Rogue can't auto-crit because the person they are surprising rolls a higher initiative than they do) then so much better. The Assassinate ability isn't so strong that I feel the need to halve the numbers of times the Rogue actually gets to use it.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

... by which I mean when do you begin a combat encounter?...

That's the way I do it, and I'd be interested to hear anyone's opinions on that sort of method, since I feel that I'm in the minority in doing it this way. I'd also like to hear about how you start an encounter and why you feel that it's the best way for you and your group.

Cheers!

I use a Speed Factor variant partly because it allows me to seamlessly unify combat and non-combat encounters. I order initiative rolls whenever there is doubt about who acted first, whether it is "who raised their hand first" or "did you grab the helm before the ship hit the planet" or "did you deal the final HP of damage before the Death Slaad could Plane Shift away?"

As far as opening attacks from Stealth go, assuming you were undetected, you'd make your attack and the enemy would keep doing whatever they were going to do anyway (e.g. walking) for that round--unless they have Alert or were explicitly on the watch, in which case I'll treat them as having implicitly Delayed, which makes them automatically lose initiative but they get to declare their action after everyone else's actions have been resolved. E.g. "An incoming crossbow bolt hits Randolph in the chest in the middle of a dinner party--it takes a second for the realization to sink in for everyone except Kimm (the Alert Shadow Monk NPC), who has already sprinted 180' (double-Dash) and is engaged in melee with the crossbowman. What do you do?"

When someone makes a hostile action, I'm okay with ignoring initiative in most cases because it doesn't matter to the outcome. "Without warning, I stab the hobgoblin warlord in the chest! (Roll, roll) I hit AC 15 for 22 points of damage due to GWM!" "He roars with anger and calls for his guard, then pulls out his sword and hits you back for (roll, roll), oops, I mean he misses completely." The result will be exactly the same if the warlord misses twice first before the greataxe hits him in the chest.

In cases where it does matter (e.g. the warlord is going to hit you back with a paralytic poison that prevents your attack from occurring, or Assassinate is in play) I would say, "You mean you try to stab him. The warlord pulls out a dagger and tries to stab you first. Time for an initiative contest."

 

[Majoru Oakheart]

One of my pet peeves is initiative being rolled when there is no combat. I dislike when the DM turns to me and says "It's your turn. What do you do?" and my response is "Why would I do anything out of the ordinary. I don't see any enemies, there is no combat taking place." It completely ruins the advantage of having a high initiative and it entirely negates certain abilities(like the rogue's advantage if he attacks before his enemy has had their turn yet). Not only that but it wastes time and turns as half the group has to say "I guess I do nothing since there's nothing to attack".

Initiative should only be rolled the second BOTH parties become aware of each other AND a hostile action is ABOUT to take place.

If the PCs don't spot the enemies, then there is a surprise round as the enemies get a round of attacks before moving on to the first round of combat. If the enemies don't spot the PCs, the same thing happens.

If SOME of the PCs spot the enemies then they get to act during the surprise round. If they roll higher initiative than the enemies it just means they have spotted them a split second before they attacked. They see the swords in their hands, they see their bows trained on the party, they know they are maybe half a second away from attacking. They have a chance to get in the first strike before the enemies do.

This is also why I don't let people get free attacks simply by saying "I attack" while out of combat. It isn't fair and it removes the enemies ability to react faster than the attacker. I like the idea that someone can raise a sword to attack and someone on the other side is so fast that they draw their sword and stab them in the gut before their swing finishes. Though I allow people to get surprise rounds against an enemy that is watching them if I think the enemy is sufficiently distracted or caught completely by surprise by the attack.

 

[epithet]

The simple answer, for me, is whenever I need something outside the narrative to know who goes first, whether in or out of combat. If the party has set their marching order and just says "we go down the northern corridor," then the result might be "when you turn the corner you see several man-sized humanoids with weapons drawn and teeth bared. Roll for initiative."

On the other hand, if the party is meeting with an unfriendly group to try to parlay, and everyone has an action ready to go as soon as the first person attacks, then I if someone attacks (PC or NPC) I'll resolve that first, then give everyone who was ready (PC and NPC) a reaction to that in DEX order to resolve their readied attacks, then roll initiative and proceed as normal. It makes no sense to me to force the role playing into an initiative order in a situation where it is obvious who goes first and which action begins combat.

As an aside, if a character has 5 feet or more of their movement left and readies an attack, if that attack is triggered I let him use 5 feet of movement on his reaction as part of that attack. I came to 5e from Pathfinder, and was greatly enamoured of the "five foot step."

 

[epithet]

... I run it old-style wherein you only get a "surprise round action" if you aren't surprised. If you are surprised, you don't get a "turn" in the surprise round. Which does mean it goes against the "rules" stating you get your Reaction once your spot in the initiative order comes and goes during the Surprise round, but frankly I don't care. I've never had a problem with it either way, and if doing it my way eliminates the arguments about the Assassinate ability (wherein the Rogue can't auto-crit because the person they are surprising rolls a higher initiative than they do) then so much better. The Assassinate ability isn't so strong that I feel the need to halve the numbers of times the Rogue actually gets to use it.

Rulings are better than rules, and role playing is better than roll playing. The most important thing is to be consistent and fair so everyone has a good time, and that means that the mechanics of the game need to makes sense to the DM. The most important "RAW" is that the rules aren't in charge of the game, DM is.

 

[redrick]

Initiative is used to resolve the sequence of actions that are happening simultaneously. These actions could be happening over a span of time (6 seconds, in a standard combat turn,) but initiative determines which outcome gets resolved first.

So, combat begins (with an initiative roll) whenever two opposing parties are aware of each other and at least one seems reasonably inclined to do violence (or some other undesired action). Most of the time, the starting gun is reaching for a weapon, raising a weapon in a threatening manner, or even the change of facial features into a hostile "we're-going-to-kill-you" look. In other words, it happens as soon as one character (or NPC) says, "I attack." The intention is registered, and initiative is rolled. The initial aggressor may be a little slow on the draw, roll a lower initiative, and be attacked by somebody else before his own attack is resolved. This is, I believe, the approach that both Paraxis and Histron are describing. That's are default combat setup, and, at my table, I sometimes used to say, "The goblin reaches for his initiative..." as a way of saying, "monster looks like he's going to attack, you will probably all want to roll initiative."

The main exception to that default is when one combatant, or group of combatants, is unaware of the other. That is, they might be surprised. In this case, there is no ability to read the intention of the attacker, because there is no awareness of the attacker. (Or maybe the attacker has, by some other means, disguised his intention. Like a poison needle on a handshake.) In this case, initiative is rolled once the surprising party does something to alert the surprised of their intent. This could be kicking down a door, or it could be jumping out from behind cover, or it could be firing an arrow from a well-hidden position. At that point, initiative is rolled, surprise is determined, and all actions after the "alerting action" occur in initiative order. The alerting action counts as part of that characters turn, though they can use any additional movement or bonus action allowed them.

We use initiative outside of combat sometimes as well, usually when characters want to take slightly opposing actions with different outcomes. When I play, I ask for actions/intentions from all players, and then circle back to resolve those actions in the order I deem appropriate. In combat, this is initiative order. (This is basically the Speed Factor initiative rule, but we don't always use the actual Speed Factor modifiers.) Out of combat, it's usually just the order that makes sense narratively, as the characters are generally working together, not at cross-purposes. (Generally.)

 

[Mercule]

We had a ton of issues with this in 5E -- more than any other edition, and I've been playing with at least a couple of these folks since 1E. Here's what I finally wrote up to add as much clarity as I could:

What “starts” a combat or surprises someone is very much a judgement call and it would be daunting to try to create full rules that fit all situations. Basic rules of thumb may prove the best way to inform expectations.

As a general principle, all combats have a “triggering event”. This may be the opening of a door, a sword drawn during failed negotiations, a hidden bandit leader giving the signal to attack, or something else. This triggering event occurs just prior to the initiative roll, but should not constitute anything that would be considered a standard action or a move; it is “free”, but minor.

Surprise happens whenever a party is not ready to react to trouble — or a specific kind of trouble. If there’s a need for some characters (PC or NPC) to roll initiative, everyone should. If, given only the knowledge available to their character, a player would not reasonably know to roll initiative, their character is surprised.