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<blockquote data-quote="Majoru Oakheart" data-source="post: 6680236" data-attributes="member: 5143">Stealth is supposed to be useful.&nbsp; As long as combat hasn't started, according to the rules, initiative hasn't been rolled.&nbsp; The surprise round is the first round that someone makes an attack in.&nbsp; If they orcs still don't know the PCs are there, then they are still surprised when an attack is made.The book says that initiative is rolled &quot;When combat starts&quot;.&nbsp; Listening to people isn't combat.I'm not sure where your idea that the PCs should only get so much benefit from hiding comes from.&nbsp; They get as much benefit as hiding would logically give them.&nbsp; That means it could give them information, a surprise round, and possibly free food as they sneak into the camp and take meals from the Orcs for the next week as long as they remain hidden.&nbsp; With a properly crafted stealth plan, the PCs could literally murder all the Orcs one by one without any of the Orcs being able to fight back if the PCs managed to somehow get them all alone, make good stealth checks and attack quietly thus getting a surprise round against EACH of them, individually.It just seems extremely gamist to say &quot;Sorry, your ONE stealth roll can't give you TOO much benefit&quot;.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Majoru Oakheart, post: 6680236, member: 5143"] Stealth is supposed to be useful. As long as combat hasn't started, according to the rules, initiative hasn't been rolled. The surprise round is the first round that someone makes an attack in. If they orcs still don't know the PCs are there, then they are still surprised when an attack is made. The book says that initiative is rolled "When combat starts". Listening to people isn't combat. I'm not sure where your idea that the PCs should only get so much benefit from hiding comes from. They get as much benefit as hiding would logically give them. That means it could give them information, a surprise round, and possibly free food as they sneak into the camp and take meals from the Orcs for the next week as long as they remain hidden. With a properly crafted stealth plan, the PCs could literally murder all the Orcs one by one without any of the Orcs being able to fight back if the PCs managed to somehow get them all alone, make good stealth checks and attack quietly thus getting a surprise round against EACH of them, individually. It just seems extremely gamist to say "Sorry, your ONE stealth roll can't give you TOO much benefit". [/QUOTE]

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