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<blockquote data-quote="Hriston" data-source="post: 6690052" data-attributes="member: 6787503">I'm not sure if this was in response to my assertion that in 5E the 'surprise roll' had become part of the initiative roll, but if so allow me to explain. I was responding to references up-thread to the surprise roll of earlier editions. In AD&amp;D in particular, the surprise roll was used to determine who was surprised and for how long only after the DM had independently determined that one party or the other (or both) was completely unaware of the other's presence. There was no skill system by which this was determined, but it was rather decided by the DM based on the circumstances. The surprise roll was then used to determine how quickly the two sides were able to react to the sudden appearance of the other. If they rolled well, they were not surprised. If they rolled poorly, they could be surprised for one or more segments. Importantly, the result of the roll was modified by Dexterity for individual characters, allowing them to negate or accrue additional segments of surprise.The Stealth/Perception contest of 5E is more properly a determination of who is hidden, analogous to the DM's determination of prior detection in AD&amp;D. Whereas, the function of the AD&amp;D surprise roll, which determined how long surprise lasts or whether a side recovers quickly from being unaware of their opponents, has been moved over to initiative where it is still a function of Dexterity.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Hriston, post: 6690052, member: 6787503"] I'm not sure if this was in response to my assertion that in 5E the 'surprise roll' had become part of the initiative roll, but if so allow me to explain. I was responding to references up-thread to the surprise roll of earlier editions. In AD&D in particular, the surprise roll was used to determine who was surprised and for how long [I]only[/I] after the DM had independently determined that one party or the other (or both) was completely unaware of the other's presence. There was no skill system by which this was determined, but it was rather [I]decided[/I] by the DM based on the circumstances. The surprise roll was then used to determine how quickly the two sides were able to react to the sudden appearance of the other. If they rolled well, they were not surprised. If they rolled poorly, they could be surprised for one or more segments. Importantly, the result of the roll was modified by Dexterity for individual characters, allowing them to negate or accrue additional segments of surprise. The Stealth/Perception contest of 5E is more properly a determination of who is [I]hidden[/I], analogous to the DM's determination of prior detection in AD&D. Whereas, the function of the AD&D surprise roll, which determined how long surprise lasts or whether a side recovers quickly from being unaware of their opponents, has been moved over to initiative where it is still a function of Dexterity. [/QUOTE]

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