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<blockquote data-quote="Flamestrike" data-source="post: 6775963" data-attributes="member: 6788736">Thats when you roll initiative. Its the initiative roll that starts combat.The DM describes why initiative is being rolled. Even surprised and hidded enemies.'A bunch of five Orcs leap from hiding 30' away, charging you while bellowing war cries! You're all surprised. Roll iniatitive.'Note how the Orcs dont really resolve the charge until their turn one; the DM just gives the players the information they need as to why theyre rolling initiaitive, and to react to on their first turns.Omitting that information is poor DMing.Thats just semantics. If he was going to have them fire arrows at you on their turn he should have given you that information. Its no different to the other way around:'PC: (Hidden) I fire an arrows at the bad guys!DM: Ok, they look up in shock at the twang of the bow, and notice the arrow headed their way. Theyre surprised. Roll initiative.'The DM failed to give you the information.I find it extremely hard to conceptualise a situation that occurs in total darkness and silence where there is no possible method of discovering a threat (or reacting to it). Invisible silenced and totally imperceptable arrows fired from an equally invisible, silenced imperceptible assasin.If such a scenario existed, then it would be an extreme outlier, and even then im sure I could explain it narratively.I mean I can narratively describe a person surviving a fall into lava, or getting struck by a 5 ton frost giants axe. This cant be that difficult.I disagree. It does kick in. Just not as reliably as some people (wrongly) thought it did.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="Flamestrike, post: 6775963, member: 6788736"] Thats when you roll initiative. Its the initiative roll that starts combat. The DM describes why initiative is being rolled. Even surprised and hidded enemies. [I]'A bunch of five Orcs leap from hiding 30' away, charging you while bellowing war cries! You're all surprised. Roll iniatitive.'[/I] Note how the Orcs dont really resolve the charge until their turn one; the DM just gives the players the information they need as to why theyre rolling initiaitive, and to react to on their first turns. Omitting that information is poor DMing. Thats just semantics. If he was going to have them fire arrows at you on their turn he should have given you that information. Its no different to the other way around: 'PC: (Hidden) I fire an arrows at the bad guys! DM: Ok, they look up in shock at the twang of the bow, and notice the arrow headed their way. Theyre surprised. Roll initiative.' The DM failed to give you the information. I find it extremely hard to conceptualise a situation that occurs in total darkness and silence where there is no possible method of discovering a threat (or reacting to it). Invisible silenced and totally imperceptable arrows fired from an equally invisible, silenced imperceptible assasin. If such a scenario existed, then it would be an extreme outlier, and even then im sure I could explain it narratively. I mean I can narratively describe a person surviving a fall into lava, or getting struck by a 5 ton frost giants axe. This cant be that difficult. I disagree. It does kick in. Just not as reliably as some people (wrongly) thought it did. [/QUOTE]

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