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Message: <blockquote data-quote="dcollins" data-source="post: 871065" data-attributes="member: 876">Re: Re: Re: When to roll initiative?No one said anything about an AOO... everyone agrees in a surprise round they're both helpless and flatfooted. The question is, do they possibly wake up (with some kind of skill check) and take a regular attack (and/or thereby become non-helpless).Moreover, in the other thread that started this question, there were non-sleeping allies around trying to guard the sleeper, so if they detect they attack they should get a chance to strike back.There's no particular reason to believe that. I would presume that in the first half, a bystander might see the beginning of a puncture mark or a line of blood as the piercing/slashing weapon starts to dig in. (Other narratives possible for other weapon types.) I think that's a recurring scene in a lot of horror or dramatic films, for example.</blockquote>