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Message: <blockquote data-quote="discosoc" data-source="post: 7115710" data-attributes="member: 6801554">IMO, persuasion is horribly misused.  Players almost always want to roll persuasion (or the GM asks them to) in an effort to change the actions/thoughts/intentions/beliefs/etc of an NPC in a very short amount of time (right then and there).  The problem is people don't work like that.  People are stubborn and most aren't going to have their minds changed on a whim -- especially from a random stranger.  Here are a few examples of how persuasion gets used and why it's usually wrong (but possibly correct):1(a).  Player wants to persuade the guard to let them into the party.  This is just stupid because guards/bouncers/police/etc aren't generally going to make a random exception for some adventurers without a *very* good reason.  The player simply saying "pretty please" isn't going to cut it, even if they're rolling in the 20's or 30's.1(b).  But what if the player is a well-known hero or other important person?  Then they would have received an invitation.  As far as the guard is concerned, the mixup is above his pay grade and his job isn't to personally vet random people asking to join the party.1(c).  But what if the player tries to convince the guard that they should have been invited?  Then the guard may very well empathize with the player's situation, but -- again -- it's not really his job to vet random people asking to join the party.  The persuasion check succeeds and the player is still left out in the cold.1(d).  But what if the player claims to have lost the invitation?  Then it would be a deception check.  Even then, the guard would still be unlikely to let the player in, regardless of any empathy he feels about the unfortunate circumstances.1(e).  What if the player has a fake invitation?  Deception again, with the added bonus of possibly gaining access to the party since the guard would believe it was real.1(f).  What if the player threatens the guard's family if they aren't let in?  Intimidation.1(g).  What if the player politely threaten's the guard's family while asking "pretty please?"  Still intimidation.1(h).  What if the player has the City Guard background?  Persuasion might actually work in this case, as a "professional courtesy" or maybe a favor that the guard is comfortable with.1(i).  What if the player knows the guard?  This could also work.  People often do bend the rules for friends, and this could easily get worked into an actual infiltration plan where the player intends to gain access to the party by befriending one of the guards beforehand.1(j).  What if the player is blackmailing the guard?  That would be intimidation, and possibly deception if the blackmail attempt is fake.  Definitely not a persuasion check.1(k).  What if the player wants to bribe the guard?  That could work, either as an auto success or a fairly easy persuasion check to convince the guard that this isn't an IA setup.  On the other hand, some people are simply never going to be bribed on the spot, so it's kind of up to the GM to figure out who can be bought, and that information is unlikely to be obvious to the player unless they've been investigation the guard beforehand.1(l).  What if the player is trying to save the guard's life?  Persuasion might work here, but this could easily dip into deception or intimidation territory as well.  It just depends on what the player is claiming (the King is clearly insane and I'm just trying to put a stop to it all!), if they are telling the truth (is the King's insanity an open secret?), and if it's worded as an ultimatum (stand aside or be cut down with the mad King you serve!).  Still, there's potential for an actual persuasion check here, but it would obviously need to be a bit more involved than "I want to try and persuade the guard to let me in..."Notice the theme here?  Successful persuasion checks generally don't result in short-term benefits (such as getting what you want), unless the attempt comes with another short-term benefit for the target (such as a bribe, or favor owed, debt paid).  Intimidation and deception will.  If you don't believe me, try "persuading" a bartender to give you a free drink the next time you're out.  Even if they empathize with you, it's incredibly unlikely that you'll get it.  Basically, we need to stop treating persuasion as some kind of "social attack roll" that results in the character getting what they want on a success (and simply walking away from the RP on a failure).So what *is* persuasion really good for?  Getting information from people will very likely involve persuading them to some degree, assuming the information isn't just outright common-knowledge.  Maybe you can't persuade the guard to let you into the party, but you could very possibly get him to talk about the guests that have already arrived or maybe get him to let slip that the guard watching the side entrance was out drinking the night before and is clearly not fit for duty.Anyway -- food for thought.  This is just something that's always bugged me about how people approach persuasion in all kinds of RPG's.</blockquote>

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