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Message: <blockquote data-quote="James McMurray" data-source="post: 4549457" data-attributes="member: 743">If they're highly min-maxed, and you cannot capitalize on their mins, you will never challenge them. That's all there is to it. You have to set up situations that make them act in areas where they're weak. A few ideas (some duplicated from above):1) Split them up in fights, or even out of fights.2) Use monsters that are resistant by their favorite attacks. For instance, if the cleric is radiance based, use angels and eladrin, with 0 undead.3) Use skill challenges everyone has to participate in. It doesn't matter much that one guy has maxed athletics if everyone has to climb a mountain. Likewise make everyone explain to the judge why their unknowing defilement of the local holy ground shouldn't result in imprisonment.4) Throw a situation at them once. Throw it at them again. See how they react both times, then throw a similar situation that has disastrous consequences if they keep to their standard tactic. 5) No rest. Keep sending things at them without giving them the 5 minutes needed to rest. Tactical choices dwindle rapidly when all you've got are at-wills.6) Step outside the rules. The GM is given the right to change rules as needed. This is in the rules, so doing so is "by the book."7) find out if they feel challenged. If they don't, ask them what you can do.8) Make an encounter out in the open against a huge number of artillery who are far away, mobile, and have enough range to target a single PC every round.9) Use NPCs more. Their tactical options are better than most monsters, and their capabilities are harder to judge. If you base them off of standard race templates from the appendix they don't even count as elites.10) Explain to them that the level of min-maxing going on is not fun for you, and ask them to remake their characters. This is a last ditch thing, but if you really can't challenge them, and that's a major part of your fun when you GM, it's all you can do unless you resign yourself to not enjoying the game as much as you could.</blockquote>

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