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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7757479" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>I'm not sure what example you're saying I side-stepped - I just reread Umbran's post that I replied to and there weren't any examples (other than an improv comedy show, and I directly talked about that).</p><p></p><p>As to whether setting the scene is conversation, every conversation has a first move - "How are you going?" or "Did you see the new X-Men film yet?" or whatever it might be.</p><p></p><p>In the context of a RPG, that might be "You ride into a Keep where you believe your long-lost sister is now living" or "OK, so why are you heading to the law firm?" or something else that fits the genre, the PCs the players have built, the group's or the system's expectations about party play, etc.</p><p> </p><p>For "tavern" substitute "dungeon" and that gives me a good number of the D&D adventures I've got on my shelves!</p><p></p><p>I'll only canvass one, though - B2.</p><p></p><p>B2 has got three components - the Keep, the Wilderness and the Caves.</p><p></p><p>I reckon the Keep could be presented in a page or so - a brief description of layout and occupants - and the reason it takes up the space it does in the module is because of system requirements about mapping (in D&D you can't resolve a PC's escape across the battlements and over the walls without a map), about stats for the NPCs, about how buying things is handled in the game (so we have a tavern price list), and maybe other stuff I'm not recalling of at present (eg I can't remember if there are any hidden or trapped stronboxes in the Keep, but describing them in D&D again has a system element, including a need to describe where and how they are hidden and trapped).</p><p></p><p>The wilderness is pretty brief as it stands, but would be even briefer if system conventions around maps and stats were different.</p><p></p><p>As for the Caves, they could be presented very differently - and, again, more succinctly - if the system was different. The need for maps, for precise numbers of inhabitants, for precise descriptions of room layouts, etc, all turn on system features of D&D. Contrast that with, say, a system that allows you to say there's an orc cave, and has (non-map) mechanics for determining your progresss through the cave, whether or not you encounter orcs (so there would be no difference between placed and wandering monsters), whether or not you find treasure, whether or not the orcs can call up an ogre buddy, etc.</p><p></p><p>I'm not saying that the Keep is bad. Or that the system is bad. I'm saying that it's the system that requires the Keep to be as long, and hence prep-intensive, as it is. We can imagine other systems - and don't even have to imagine them, really, given they exist - which would permit the "story" of the Keep to be told in a way that didn't require much prep at all.</p><p></p><p>Of course, the system being different, the play experience would be different. But that difference wouldn't be about story quality. It would be about what sorts of demands are put on the players: less wargaming/skilled play of the Gygaxian sort; more "story readiness".</p><p></p><p>I don't have a good handle on what it is that is currently making D&D popular, but to the extent that it's driven eg by watching videos of others playing I would have thought that maybe "story" is as big a thing as wargaming/skilled play, in which case it mght make sense - if there is a shortage of GMs in part due to workload issues - to think about system approaches that reduce that burden of workload. That's all I'm saying.</p><p></p><p>EDIT: Saw this, which is clearly relevant:</p><p></p><p>To me, that seems to go to a whole other thing: how much description does the GM need to set a scene?</p><p></p><p>My own view is that boxed text of the sort I'm familiar with in modules is almost always badly written - and so doesn't contribute to "story" in any helpful way - and is mostly redundant. To the extent that it engages with intricacies of the layout (eg you see a room which is so-and-so wide, with such-and-such doors in such-and-such walls), it is serving a system purpose, not an aesthetic one (REH's descriptions of the dungeons Conan travels through don't read anything like module boxed gtext); to the extent that it gives us details like the colours of curtains or the sigils on tapestries, I think that is the sort of stuff that - if needed - can be made up on the spot with no cost to the quality of the story being created.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7757479, member: 42582"] I'm not sure what example you're saying I side-stepped - I just reread Umbran's post that I replied to and there weren't any examples (other than an improv comedy show, and I directly talked about that). As to whether setting the scene is conversation, every conversation has a first move - "How are you going?" or "Did you see the new X-Men film yet?" or whatever it might be. In the context of a RPG, that might be "You ride into a Keep where you believe your long-lost sister is now living" or "OK, so why are you heading to the law firm?" or something else that fits the genre, the PCs the players have built, the group's or the system's expectations about party play, etc. For "tavern" substitute "dungeon" and that gives me a good number of the D&D adventures I've got on my shelves! I'll only canvass one, though - B2. B2 has got three components - the Keep, the Wilderness and the Caves. I reckon the Keep could be presented in a page or so - a brief description of layout and occupants - and the reason it takes up the space it does in the module is because of system requirements about mapping (in D&D you can't resolve a PC's escape across the battlements and over the walls without a map), about stats for the NPCs, about how buying things is handled in the game (so we have a tavern price list), and maybe other stuff I'm not recalling of at present (eg I can't remember if there are any hidden or trapped stronboxes in the Keep, but describing them in D&D again has a system element, including a need to describe where and how they are hidden and trapped). The wilderness is pretty brief as it stands, but would be even briefer if system conventions around maps and stats were different. As for the Caves, they could be presented very differently - and, again, more succinctly - if the system was different. The need for maps, for precise numbers of inhabitants, for precise descriptions of room layouts, etc, all turn on system features of D&D. Contrast that with, say, a system that allows you to say there's an orc cave, and has (non-map) mechanics for determining your progresss through the cave, whether or not you encounter orcs (so there would be no difference between placed and wandering monsters), whether or not you find treasure, whether or not the orcs can call up an ogre buddy, etc. I'm not saying that the Keep is bad. Or that the system is bad. I'm saying that it's the system that requires the Keep to be as long, and hence prep-intensive, as it is. We can imagine other systems - and don't even have to imagine them, really, given they exist - which would permit the "story" of the Keep to be told in a way that didn't require much prep at all. Of course, the system being different, the play experience would be different. But that difference wouldn't be about story quality. It would be about what sorts of demands are put on the players: less wargaming/skilled play of the Gygaxian sort; more "story readiness". I don't have a good handle on what it is that is currently making D&D popular, but to the extent that it's driven eg by watching videos of others playing I would have thought that maybe "story" is as big a thing as wargaming/skilled play, in which case it mght make sense - if there is a shortage of GMs in part due to workload issues - to think about system approaches that reduce that burden of workload. That's all I'm saying. EDIT: Saw this, which is clearly relevant: To me, that seems to go to a whole other thing: how much description does the GM need to set a scene? My own view is that boxed text of the sort I'm familiar with in modules is almost always badly written - and so doesn't contribute to "story" in any helpful way - and is mostly redundant. To the extent that it engages with intricacies of the layout (eg you see a room which is so-and-so wide, with such-and-such doors in such-and-such walls), it is serving a system purpose, not an aesthetic one (REH's descriptions of the dungeons Conan travels through don't read anything like module boxed gtext); to the extent that it gives us details like the colours of curtains or the sigils on tapestries, I think that is the sort of stuff that - if needed - can be made up on the spot with no cost to the quality of the story being created. [/QUOTE]
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