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<blockquote data-quote="pemerton" data-source="post: 7757585" data-attributes="member: 42582"><p>Classic Traveller - which I found extremely hard to make sense of - and Moldvay Basic - which on the surface I found very easy to make sense of, but which I didn't <em>properly</em> grasp at all, resulting in mixed experiences with B/X and AD&D (which for present purposes can be treated as a version of the same game, I think).</p><p></p><p>Classic Traveller can be run with little or no prep (the patron table, the world gen system, etc can all be deployed quickly and easily to generate needed content) but it doesn't have enough advice on what to actually do to make a game happen. For instance, the example of PC generation does involve building up a PC backstory, but (i) working out such a backstory isn't itself presented as part of the PC gen process, and (ii) there is no suggestion in the account of patron encounters that the first such encounter might hook onto the backstory, so as to help get things moving.</p><p></p><p>Another example: the rules for determining encounter range based on dice modifed by terrain and Tactics skill can be used to obviate the need for detailed mapping. Rather, the referee can proceed by way of general descriptions (you're in a city, you're in a clearing, you're in a base, etc) and then (if necessary) use the result of the roll for encounter distance to precisify that description. But the rules don't talk about this possibility at all. (Later Traveller books assume pre-drawn maps, but the original rulebooks are very thin on this whole issue. I think they are making assumptions about player familiarity with some RPG and wargaming conventions.)</p><p></p><p>The Classic Traveller books also suffer from the stanard early RPG problem of rules scattered in different places (though not as bad as AD&D), making it hard for the new player to get a full sense of the range of action resolution the system can support and the extent to which it does or doesn't need prep to make that happen.</p><p></p><p>Moldvay Basic, on the other hand, has interesting advice on setting up scenarios (at or near the start of Chapter 8 on GMing advice and techniques) but - as one can discover through actual play - doesn't actually support those scenarios in a deep way. They turn out to be relatively thin veneers over a game of Gygaxian "skilled play". But the discussion of this is a bit thin - Gygax's PHB does a better job, I think - and the result (I can testify from experience) can be a mismatch between hopes and realities of a fantasy adventure experience.</p><p></p><p>The first published RPG work to show me what RPGing <em>could</em> be - in terms of some sort of correlation between PC gen, desired fantasy adventure experience, setting, etc - was Oriental Adventures. It has systems that, however imperfectly developed, establish PC motivations (family, honour); PCs have classes and calllings that give them an orientation towards the setting other than raiding dungeons; monsters also have motivations and supernatural affiliations that (again, however imperfectly) give them a "meaning" within the game that allows a back-and-forth between players and GM to emerge which is not about dungeon-crawing in the classic sense but about "story" in some recognisable (if nevertheless not fully realised) sense.</p><p></p><p>(No doubt there were RPG books earlier than OA that did this - eg Runequest at least to some extent; James Bond, although it's a bit more narrowly focused - but at the time I didn't know those works.)</p><p></p><p></p><p>Some thoughts in reply:</p><p></p><p>To the extent that demands of GM prep are being seen as an obstacle to GMing, is this the sort of prep that is in mind? I don't know, but hadn't got that impression. I thought that maps, stat blocks, etc - and the managing these and the associated rules at the table - was the issue.</p><p></p><p>But in any event, does this stuff - I agree with you that it is mostly colour - make for a better story? I think it's contribution to the story tends to be overrated, for two reasons. One is probably personal to me: I prefer action to (mere) narration, and in RPGing action = the players making decisions about what their PCs do, and working out what results from that. A few sentences from a NPC is fine, but if that has to be prepped I go back to my comment just above that I don't see that prepping a few sentences (for those who aren't so good at spontaneous narration) is the obstacle that is being pointed to.</p><p></p><p>The second I think is not so personal to me (though naturally reflects my own dispositions and orientation): a heavy emphasis on narration and colour seems to me to make the success of the RPG venture turn on its weakest point rather than its strongest. Given that most GMs probably aren't great writers, then their speech for the Duke is probably not going to be super-great listening. Whenever I reread the LotR I tend to skip the Old Forest narration on grounds that it is tedious, and a similar thing from a GM who is not as good a writer as JRRT is likely to have a similar problem.</p><p></p><p>If I want inpsiring, or exciting, or gripping, narration I'll read a book or watch a film by someone who is almost certainly a better writer than the local GM.</p><p></p><p>Whereas the <em>strentgh</em> of RPGs is the interaction between the participants, and the back-and-forth dynamic between players and GM, and I think that is facilitated by a modest amount of colour clearly drawn, which gives the players something to work with but doesn't make the narration rather than their action declarations the principal focus of attention.</p><p></p><p>NPC motives are a different thing because they go beyond colour. But my own view is that these can work just as well when they're developed via play - using supporting tools like reaction tables and social resolution mechanics, as well as the back-and-forth of play - rather than worked out in advance. So this isn't an area where I regard prep as necessarily conducing to a better story experience.</p><p></p><p>Dynamic action scenes seems to me to go straight to system. D&D undoubtedly requires prep - even if its just drawing up maps and getting some stats done - to support dynamic action scenes. In some cases it might also require writing up whole resolution subsystems. But other systems needn't impose the same sorts of demands.</p><p></p><p>This is not a criticism of D&D. It's just reiterating my point that, if prep is seen as an issue for attracting GMs, it makes sense to look at how systems, tools, tecniques, approaches etc tend to make prep more or less necessary.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="pemerton, post: 7757585, member: 42582"] Classic Traveller - which I found extremely hard to make sense of - and Moldvay Basic - which on the surface I found very easy to make sense of, but which I didn't [I]properly[/I] grasp at all, resulting in mixed experiences with B/X and AD&D (which for present purposes can be treated as a version of the same game, I think). Classic Traveller can be run with little or no prep (the patron table, the world gen system, etc can all be deployed quickly and easily to generate needed content) but it doesn't have enough advice on what to actually do to make a game happen. For instance, the example of PC generation does involve building up a PC backstory, but (i) working out such a backstory isn't itself presented as part of the PC gen process, and (ii) there is no suggestion in the account of patron encounters that the first such encounter might hook onto the backstory, so as to help get things moving. Another example: the rules for determining encounter range based on dice modifed by terrain and Tactics skill can be used to obviate the need for detailed mapping. Rather, the referee can proceed by way of general descriptions (you're in a city, you're in a clearing, you're in a base, etc) and then (if necessary) use the result of the roll for encounter distance to precisify that description. But the rules don't talk about this possibility at all. (Later Traveller books assume pre-drawn maps, but the original rulebooks are very thin on this whole issue. I think they are making assumptions about player familiarity with some RPG and wargaming conventions.) The Classic Traveller books also suffer from the stanard early RPG problem of rules scattered in different places (though not as bad as AD&D), making it hard for the new player to get a full sense of the range of action resolution the system can support and the extent to which it does or doesn't need prep to make that happen. Moldvay Basic, on the other hand, has interesting advice on setting up scenarios (at or near the start of Chapter 8 on GMing advice and techniques) but - as one can discover through actual play - doesn't actually support those scenarios in a deep way. They turn out to be relatively thin veneers over a game of Gygaxian "skilled play". But the discussion of this is a bit thin - Gygax's PHB does a better job, I think - and the result (I can testify from experience) can be a mismatch between hopes and realities of a fantasy adventure experience. The first published RPG work to show me what RPGing [I]could[/I] be - in terms of some sort of correlation between PC gen, desired fantasy adventure experience, setting, etc - was Oriental Adventures. It has systems that, however imperfectly developed, establish PC motivations (family, honour); PCs have classes and calllings that give them an orientation towards the setting other than raiding dungeons; monsters also have motivations and supernatural affiliations that (again, however imperfectly) give them a "meaning" within the game that allows a back-and-forth between players and GM to emerge which is not about dungeon-crawing in the classic sense but about "story" in some recognisable (if nevertheless not fully realised) sense. (No doubt there were RPG books earlier than OA that did this - eg Runequest at least to some extent; James Bond, although it's a bit more narrowly focused - but at the time I didn't know those works.) Some thoughts in reply: To the extent that demands of GM prep are being seen as an obstacle to GMing, is this the sort of prep that is in mind? I don't know, but hadn't got that impression. I thought that maps, stat blocks, etc - and the managing these and the associated rules at the table - was the issue. But in any event, does this stuff - I agree with you that it is mostly colour - make for a better story? I think it's contribution to the story tends to be overrated, for two reasons. One is probably personal to me: I prefer action to (mere) narration, and in RPGing action = the players making decisions about what their PCs do, and working out what results from that. A few sentences from a NPC is fine, but if that has to be prepped I go back to my comment just above that I don't see that prepping a few sentences (for those who aren't so good at spontaneous narration) is the obstacle that is being pointed to. The second I think is not so personal to me (though naturally reflects my own dispositions and orientation): a heavy emphasis on narration and colour seems to me to make the success of the RPG venture turn on its weakest point rather than its strongest. Given that most GMs probably aren't great writers, then their speech for the Duke is probably not going to be super-great listening. Whenever I reread the LotR I tend to skip the Old Forest narration on grounds that it is tedious, and a similar thing from a GM who is not as good a writer as JRRT is likely to have a similar problem. If I want inpsiring, or exciting, or gripping, narration I'll read a book or watch a film by someone who is almost certainly a better writer than the local GM. Whereas the [i]strentgh[/I] of RPGs is the interaction between the participants, and the back-and-forth dynamic between players and GM, and I think that is facilitated by a modest amount of colour clearly drawn, which gives the players something to work with but doesn't make the narration rather than their action declarations the principal focus of attention. NPC motives are a different thing because they go beyond colour. But my own view is that these can work just as well when they're developed via play - using supporting tools like reaction tables and social resolution mechanics, as well as the back-and-forth of play - rather than worked out in advance. So this isn't an area where I regard prep as necessarily conducing to a better story experience. Dynamic action scenes seems to me to go straight to system. D&D undoubtedly requires prep - even if its just drawing up maps and getting some stats done - to support dynamic action scenes. In some cases it might also require writing up whole resolution subsystems. But other systems needn't impose the same sorts of demands. This is not a criticism of D&D. It's just reiterating my point that, if prep is seen as an issue for attracting GMs, it makes sense to look at how systems, tools, tecniques, approaches etc tend to make prep more or less necessary. [/QUOTE]
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