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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Arial Black" data-source="post: 7070073" data-attributes="member: 6799649">smbakeresq was ill advised to make such sweeping statements about point-buy always being this and only for that, but he does have a point (no pun intended): point-buy encourages min-maxing.Provably false. My latest PC is an Aasimar barbarian whose stats (after racial adjustment, 27 point buy) are Str 14 Dex 14 Con 16 Int 8 Wis 8 Cha 14. Do you really thing that I want this character to have 8s in Int and Wis? Of course I don't! But point-buy forces me to choose whether I can live with those 8s or whether I could have 10s or 12s and have lower Str/Dex/Con/Cha. If point-buy 'allowed me to control what exact character I am playing', as you claim, then my main stats would be as-is while my Int/Wis would be 12.You think that point-buy is less metagamey? How can it possibly be less, when how the rolling ends up is the end of it  while point-buy allows you to carry on and reduce some stats in order to increase others?It's a common fault in us all, that we hyperbolise. The way we like is fantastic and the way we don't is rubbish, while the truth is that each way has its own mixture of advantages and disadvantages, strengths and weaknesses.Rolling has strengths: a more realistic population (not all wizards have Str 8, half the population don't have exactly 8 in some stats and exactly 16 in others, no-one has 7 or less or 18 or more), the results of rolling and the creativity to make sense of those rolled scores serves as inspiration while simply assigning stats only works with ideas you already had, etc. Rolling also has weaknesses: what to do about large disparities between 'good' and 'bad' rolled arrays in the same party (which is good for realism because people are not made equal but bad for game balance for the exact same reason), waiting until session 1 to roll your scores and then having to go away and think about your PC from scratch (to guard against cheating with pre-rolled 'three 18s, honest!'), your rolls not necessarily allowing you to play the concept you want to play.Point-buy definitely has strengths: you can build a PC before the game starts because 'fairness' (if not 'verisimilitude') is built in, you can play whatever concept you want to play (but only if it adds up to 27 points! If your concept adds up to 26 or less or 28 or more then your concept is not valid!)--basically, you have the illusion of being able to play whatever you want to play.But point-buy, just like rolling, has weaknesses: I've mentioned some already, so I'll concentrate on the weakness that smbakeresq was getting at: point-buy encourages min-maxing, to a greater extent than rolling.Sure, when you roll six scores and are free to assign those scores to any stat then there is an element of min-maxing right there; why would I 'waste' that 14 on Str when my wizard would benefit more from a high Dex or Con? I'll put my lowest roll, 9, in Str. But point-buy allows you to lower that Str even more (to a minimum of 8) and use that point somewhere else. And it makes perfect sense to do so!There is an evolutionary pressure to make the best use of your points to support your concept. Why waste any points on Str to make it 9? Just let it stay at 8. The best modifier that can be achieved is 16, so my Int will be exactly 16 (just like every other human wizard in the world!) because to assign my points any other way would be deliberately gimping my own PC.When you are given a task to make a (say) wizard and you are given an array (whether that is a set array assigned by the DM or whether that array was achieved by rolling) then you can make your decisions about where to place each score, but you cannot further alter those scores by shaving off some points from those scores you value least (Str/Cha for wizards) and using those savings to further increase the stats you favour! Point-buy lets you do exactly this.So you do. Your wizards steadily evolve into clones who all have Str/Cha 8 and Int 16. All your PCs evolve into creatures whose stats are mainly exactly 8 or exactly 16, because to do otherwise is to deliberately make a poor choice.This is one of the weaknesses of point-buy. It is undeniable.However, this does not mean that rolling is 'better' than point-buy. It is just one of the factors to be considered. You choose the whole package of strengths and weaknesses of the system.This thread is about 'min-maxing', not about 'which is better: rolling or point-buy'. And, when it comes to min-maxing, point-buy is a factor. In the old days there was only rolling; there was no point-buy. With the advent of organised play, point-buy has seen an increase of use over time because one of the many strengths of point-buy is organised play; the 'level playing field'.So it is fair to say that the perceived increase in min-maxing over time is....encouraged...by point-buy.</blockquote>

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