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Where does optimizing end and min-maxing begin? And is min-maxing a bad thing?
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<blockquote data-quote="Ilbranteloth" data-source="post: 7074087" data-attributes="member: 6778044"><p>So providing an enjoyable play experience is different from tailoring the encounters to the party, or even moreso, providing challenges appropriate to the party. Yes, the DM does have to run the type of game the players are interested in playing. If they don't like horror, then don't run horror.</p><p></p><p>No evil characters, and no PvP activities are generally allowed in my campaigns as a rule. There are some (usually temporary) exceptions from time-to-time, but they are DM instigated and monitored.</p><p></p><p>The character's backstory plays into the campaign in a large way. I do listen to the players and work much of what they come up with into the campaign. I find that very effective to grounding them in the world. But I also encourage and require a certain amount of their backstory to tie them into the world. I want the players to be fully invested in the normal, boring everyday life of the characters. To have a basic understanding of what would motivate them to consider risking their lives on a potentially daily basis. </p><p></p><p>Each player is required to have at least 3 characters, two of which are human, and two of which are native to the main village where the campaign is centered. I provide background for the village, so they have a good understanding of the local politics, movers and shakers, daily life, and potential challenges faced by their village. Their home.</p><p></p><p>The area around town is relatively well known to them, and the farther from town they roam, or if they choose to start exploring underground, the farther they go, the more likely they'll run into something that might be too much of a challenge for them. They need to be prepared to retreat. Because I'm not going to pull punches, and if they insist on going in certain directions (with known lore, etc.) then they will have to deal with the consequences. If they don't like something, like social challenges, then they are better off staying in the wilderness. The world is the way the world is. That's the framework I provide, and they are free to build their story from there.</p><p></p><p>That's very different than saying I won't provide encounters that are too difficult for them. There are certainly warning signs, and opportunities to avoid them, but they are there. There are known dragon lairs, for example. It's up to them not to head into the mountains to find them.</p><p></p><p>It's a collaborative game, so obviously the things they do have impact on what I do and vice versa. But the part of the story I get to write is what's going on with the NPCs, and the events of the world, the organizations etc. So a given NPC or organization, or even group of monsters, have their own agendas and goals. And those almost always have nothing to do with the PCs, at least initially. The orcs expanding their territory north, and preparing to attack the band of hill giants that occupy a small cave system has no relationship to the players. When the hill giants are driven out, and some of them find themselves in conflict with the village, the PCs might be involved in the defense of the village, and they might not. If they decide to investigate why the giants have come this far east, then they may find out about the orcs. The orcs number around 1,200 and are expanding in several directions. Obviously it's too many for the PCs to engage directly, but they may still decide to find out as much as they can before bringing information back to the village. Perhaps they'll be able to forge an alliance with the remaining hill giants. I don't have any idea, since I don't know what they'll do.</p><p></p><p>A band of up to 20 PCs (6 players, each with at least 3 PCs that can be involved during a given week) is still no match against about 20 hill giants or 1,200 orcs. They can let the village know, but the village is around 600 people and is still probably not enough to deal with the problem directly anyway. So these PCs have to find a way to address the issue on their own, without the usual run in and fight. Otherwise they'll be rolling up new characters. </p><p></p><p>In the meantime, undead have risen from the catacombs beneath the town. Nobody knows why yet. Necrotic damage in my campaign can only be healed by 4th-level or higher magic, so it's a very dangerous situation. Right now it's just zombies, skeletons and ghouls, so they don't have to worry about necrotic damage. However, going into the catacombs to find the problem is a very frightening prospect, because there could be wights, wraiths, <em>can</em> cause necrotic damage. If the PCs choose not to engage with this, or the giants, there will be others that will, but they may or may not fail, and circumstances may turn from bad to worse if they don't.</p><p></p><p>These are all tailored to the events that are going on in my Forgotten Realms right now. Things that occur, and places they can visit, are much larger than what is often published. For example, I used the MERP maps for the Mines of Moria for the ancient Netherese/dwarven mines of Dekanter. This was a dwarven mine and city, housing tens of thousands of dwarves. It's not a few dozen rooms per level. It's an underground city. Another group of players is currently exploring that right now. They spent over 3 game months exploring another set of catacombs, using maps of the real catacombs under Paris. They are enormous, going on for miles. The potential number of undead is mind-boggling, imagine being the group having to explore that in a world like this. Every 10 feet is another 4 tiers per side of the 5' wide passageway of deceased. Are they dangerous? Possibly. Well, probably. At least some of them.</p><p></p><p>They are challenging times, and people will probably die. Maybe some of the PCs. There are so many options that I can't possibly imagine what the PCs will actually do. So I don't try. I just set the stage and let them take it from there. But I can say that beating these challenges will require a lot of creativity on their part.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Ilbranteloth, post: 7074087, member: 6778044"] So providing an enjoyable play experience is different from tailoring the encounters to the party, or even moreso, providing challenges appropriate to the party. Yes, the DM does have to run the type of game the players are interested in playing. If they don't like horror, then don't run horror. No evil characters, and no PvP activities are generally allowed in my campaigns as a rule. There are some (usually temporary) exceptions from time-to-time, but they are DM instigated and monitored. The character's backstory plays into the campaign in a large way. I do listen to the players and work much of what they come up with into the campaign. I find that very effective to grounding them in the world. But I also encourage and require a certain amount of their backstory to tie them into the world. I want the players to be fully invested in the normal, boring everyday life of the characters. To have a basic understanding of what would motivate them to consider risking their lives on a potentially daily basis. Each player is required to have at least 3 characters, two of which are human, and two of which are native to the main village where the campaign is centered. I provide background for the village, so they have a good understanding of the local politics, movers and shakers, daily life, and potential challenges faced by their village. Their home. The area around town is relatively well known to them, and the farther from town they roam, or if they choose to start exploring underground, the farther they go, the more likely they'll run into something that might be too much of a challenge for them. They need to be prepared to retreat. Because I'm not going to pull punches, and if they insist on going in certain directions (with known lore, etc.) then they will have to deal with the consequences. If they don't like something, like social challenges, then they are better off staying in the wilderness. The world is the way the world is. That's the framework I provide, and they are free to build their story from there. That's very different than saying I won't provide encounters that are too difficult for them. There are certainly warning signs, and opportunities to avoid them, but they are there. There are known dragon lairs, for example. It's up to them not to head into the mountains to find them. It's a collaborative game, so obviously the things they do have impact on what I do and vice versa. But the part of the story I get to write is what's going on with the NPCs, and the events of the world, the organizations etc. So a given NPC or organization, or even group of monsters, have their own agendas and goals. And those almost always have nothing to do with the PCs, at least initially. The orcs expanding their territory north, and preparing to attack the band of hill giants that occupy a small cave system has no relationship to the players. When the hill giants are driven out, and some of them find themselves in conflict with the village, the PCs might be involved in the defense of the village, and they might not. If they decide to investigate why the giants have come this far east, then they may find out about the orcs. The orcs number around 1,200 and are expanding in several directions. Obviously it's too many for the PCs to engage directly, but they may still decide to find out as much as they can before bringing information back to the village. Perhaps they'll be able to forge an alliance with the remaining hill giants. I don't have any idea, since I don't know what they'll do. A band of up to 20 PCs (6 players, each with at least 3 PCs that can be involved during a given week) is still no match against about 20 hill giants or 1,200 orcs. They can let the village know, but the village is around 600 people and is still probably not enough to deal with the problem directly anyway. So these PCs have to find a way to address the issue on their own, without the usual run in and fight. Otherwise they'll be rolling up new characters. In the meantime, undead have risen from the catacombs beneath the town. Nobody knows why yet. Necrotic damage in my campaign can only be healed by 4th-level or higher magic, so it's a very dangerous situation. Right now it's just zombies, skeletons and ghouls, so they don't have to worry about necrotic damage. However, going into the catacombs to find the problem is a very frightening prospect, because there could be wights, wraiths, [I]can[/I] cause necrotic damage. If the PCs choose not to engage with this, or the giants, there will be others that will, but they may or may not fail, and circumstances may turn from bad to worse if they don't. These are all tailored to the events that are going on in my Forgotten Realms right now. Things that occur, and places they can visit, are much larger than what is often published. For example, I used the MERP maps for the Mines of Moria for the ancient Netherese/dwarven mines of Dekanter. This was a dwarven mine and city, housing tens of thousands of dwarves. It's not a few dozen rooms per level. It's an underground city. Another group of players is currently exploring that right now. They spent over 3 game months exploring another set of catacombs, using maps of the real catacombs under Paris. They are enormous, going on for miles. The potential number of undead is mind-boggling, imagine being the group having to explore that in a world like this. Every 10 feet is another 4 tiers per side of the 5' wide passageway of deceased. Are they dangerous? Possibly. Well, probably. At least some of them. They are challenging times, and people will probably die. Maybe some of the PCs. There are so many options that I can't possibly imagine what the PCs will actually do. So I don't try. I just set the stage and let them take it from there. But I can say that beating these challenges will require a lot of creativity on their part. [/QUOTE]
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