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<blockquote data-quote="schnee" data-source="post: 7076406" data-attributes="member: 16728">I grok it.I think of it as '<a href="http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/hoist-by-your-own-petard.html" target="_blank">hoist with your own petard</a>'.People min/max extremely to 'beat' the game. Someone with 18 STR / CON and 8 everything else hopes to make swinging a sword solve everything. That is not a real person, it is a caricature, a one-trick pony. It is trying to exploit mechanical knowledge.The immense frustration for DMs having a player like that is because to make that 'one thing' challenging for that one player, it becomes unbearably deadly for everyone else. Balancing situations is hard enough without that. If you're in a room full of other min/max combat twinks, and the game has been reduced to only tactical combat, sure, go for it! But this is a game with environmental challenges, illusions, human interactions, physical obstacles, tests of wit and understanding, agility and mobility, and at every single other one of these those characters are a liability.That absolute combat monster will fold like a wet paper bag at the first opponent with a charm spell. Or sit there dumbfounded and useless at an illusion. Or anger the local constable with their uncouth manners when trying to negotiate. Not a big deal when you have the luxury of the party 'expert' take over when stakes are low, but because most D&amp;D situations combine several types of threats at the same time, and any attack vector other than combat will shut down that character's ability to do combat, they will fail at combat. Often.So, &quot;so good at combat that everything else prevents them from actually doing combat&quot; is the D&amp;D 'hoist by their own petard'. The glee comes from seeing a min/maxer who is trying to break the game for everyone else have their plans foiled.</blockquote>

[QUOTE="schnee, post: 7076406, member: 16728"] I grok it. I think of it as '[URL="http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/hoist-by-your-own-petard.html"]hoist with your own petard[/URL]'. People min/max extremely to 'beat' the game. Someone with 18 STR / CON and 8 everything else hopes to make swinging a sword solve everything. That is not a real person, it is a caricature, a one-trick pony. It is trying to exploit mechanical knowledge. The immense frustration for DMs having a player like that is because to make that 'one thing' challenging for that one player, it becomes unbearably deadly for everyone else. Balancing situations is hard enough without that. If you're in a room full of other min/max combat twinks, and the game has been reduced to only tactical combat, sure, go for it! But this is a game with environmental challenges, illusions, human interactions, physical obstacles, tests of wit and understanding, agility and mobility, and at every single other one of these those characters are a liability. That absolute combat monster will fold like a wet paper bag at the first opponent with a charm spell. Or sit there dumbfounded and useless at an illusion. Or anger the local constable with their uncouth manners when trying to negotiate. Not a big deal when you have the luxury of the party 'expert' take over when stakes are low, but because most D&D situations combine several types of threats at the same time, and any attack vector other than combat will shut down that character's ability to do combat, they will fail at combat. Often. So, "so good at combat that everything else prevents them from actually doing combat" is the D&D 'hoist by their own petard'. The glee comes from seeing a min/maxer who is trying to break the game for everyone else have their plans foiled. [/QUOTE]

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