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Message: <blockquote data-quote="Ratskinner" data-source="post: 6185317" data-attributes="member: 6688937">For CoDzilla, maybe, but many things like the Diplomancer didn't exist previously. I mean, spend a day perusing old CharOp builds. I would suggest that such technical consistency doesn't really exist outside the 4e additional framework. Without a presumed numerical progression (like 4e had), there's really no good way to balance all the little fiddly bits against each other. What seems like a reasonable boost or ability for the second level of prestige class intended to be your 7th level, might be wildly over or under powered when you dip that prestige class (the fourth one, BTW) just to get said ability. Don't forget, this works the other way, too. It's not just overpowered combos, its underpowered under-optimized "traps" as well (I suspect there a great many more of these than we are even aware.) Note the changes that 4e made (e.g. paragons vs. prestige). I mean, there's a lot of reasons people think 4e is more balanced than 3e, and I don't see a lot of them as rooted in the core d20 mechanics.Otherwise, I think we may be crossing wires on what counts as the "core" of d20. (Which is perfectly understandable as it wasn't clearly defined, AFAICT) First, there is the mechanic (d20 + modifiers vs. AC/DC possibly with damage/effect roll). The rest is the source of those modifiers: Attribute Scores (and modifiers), Feats, Class & Class abilities, Spells & Effects, Skill points, Conditions, a few situational modifiers. That's about where I'd draw my line for "core" d20 mechanics.     Possibly, if we strip d20 down to just the "roll d20 + mods vs. DC" we could easily substitute that in for "roll+Stat" in Dungeon World's mechanics (change the numbers to reflect the new method). Although, that does chuck out most of the fiddly business in the d20 thing...I dunno if that still counts, or if that could all be re-worked somehow to make sense in the broader Dungeon World way of doing things. (Maybe Power Attack adds a line to "Hack-n-Slash?") I just got 13th Age a few days ago, and I can't yet tell if I'm disappointed or overjoyed. Either way, its still a bunch of neat stuff to steal for other D&D games.I think 4e does a much better job of making concept accessible than most d20 implementations, to be sure. That extra layer of numerical control gives a way to have, say, an effective dual-weapon fighter at first level. All one needs to do is write up a series of appropriate powers. However, there's limits to how "easy" that actually is for a novel concept, and compared to a free-descriptor system like FATE, or even MHRP with all its vagaries, its incomparably harder.Probably. Although I see 4e's architectural changes as primarily a containment system for 3e's "core". Which, I think, is overall probably a good idea. Trailblazer stands out in my mind, as a product that tries to retrofit some of those changes into the 3.5/PF core system a little more closely. I haven't gotten to try it out.</blockquote>

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