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Message: <blockquote data-quote="KarinsDad" data-source="post: 4092973" data-attributes="member: 2011">I think you have hit on something that was in the back of my mind as well.Unfortunately, my players will not see it that way. Several have already stated that they want to try 4E without any house rules.So, I will need to compromise with them. Taking Surges away completely would result in a major revolt. <img src="https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/joypixels/assets/8.0/png/unicode/64/1f609.png" class="smilie smilie--emoji" loading="lazy" width="64" height="64" alt=";)" title="Wink    ;)"  data-smilie="2"data-shortname=";)" /> One idea is to use the 4E rules, but to add some type of "wound points" or something.For example, every attack does 10% (round up) real damage and real damage can only be healed via lengthy bed rest (or possibly rare rituals).So, this adds a little bookkeeping where players keep track of two sets of hit points. But, it should not be that bad to handle:Real Total: 50Subdual Total: 50take 5 points of damage:Real Total: 49Subdual Total: 45take 11 points of damage:Real Total: 47Subdual Total: 34etc.Surges bring the Subdual Total up, but not above the Real Total. Although the PCs can fight a long time this way, there are limits. Eventually, they will need to go rest and rest for quite a while.Not much different than Body and Stun in Champions. In fact, I'll probably call them that.</blockquote>