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General Tabletop Discussion
D&D Older Editions
Where was 4e headed before it was canned?
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<blockquote data-quote="Hussar" data-source="post: 7791044" data-attributes="member: 22779"><p>I'm still rather baffled how the DM determining that X is impossible unless the character is trained is somehow an "objective" DC. How does the DM determine that? Sure, it applies to everyone in the game world, but, that's not what objective means. It's an entirely subjective determination (whatever the DM feels is appropriate for his or her understanding of how difficult the task would be) that is simply applied generally.</p><p></p><p>That's not what objective means.</p><p></p><p>So, again, if the DC is 25 for performing a task, what difference does it make how I achieve that DC? And, how can you claim that the DC is objective when it is gated behind a DM's determination?</p><p></p><p>In 5e, the only mechanical difference between trained and untrained is a +2-6 (7?) bonus to the ability check. Note, you never actually make a "skill check". You make an ability check that is modified by skills. There's a key difference there. How do I unlock a lock without lock picks? Fonzie Bump for the win. I achieved the appropriate DC (somehow) and the lock is open. Whether or not I'm trained shouldn't actually enter into it, not if the DC's are objective to the game world, rather than subjectively determined by the DM on an ad hoc basis dependent on the DM's understanding of genre convention.</p></blockquote><p></p>
[QUOTE="Hussar, post: 7791044, member: 22779"] I'm still rather baffled how the DM determining that X is impossible unless the character is trained is somehow an "objective" DC. How does the DM determine that? Sure, it applies to everyone in the game world, but, that's not what objective means. It's an entirely subjective determination (whatever the DM feels is appropriate for his or her understanding of how difficult the task would be) that is simply applied generally. That's not what objective means. So, again, if the DC is 25 for performing a task, what difference does it make how I achieve that DC? And, how can you claim that the DC is objective when it is gated behind a DM's determination? In 5e, the only mechanical difference between trained and untrained is a +2-6 (7?) bonus to the ability check. Note, you never actually make a "skill check". You make an ability check that is modified by skills. There's a key difference there. How do I unlock a lock without lock picks? Fonzie Bump for the win. I achieved the appropriate DC (somehow) and the lock is open. Whether or not I'm trained shouldn't actually enter into it, not if the DC's are objective to the game world, rather than subjectively determined by the DM on an ad hoc basis dependent on the DM's understanding of genre convention. [/QUOTE]
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